Remind me to explain the idea of a “joke” to you someday.
And, sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren’t the first to talk about Deafhood as a cult. That’s been going on for months now… and I’ve been finding it amusing how a small group is constantly coming up with new terms to denigrate some people. Sad what some people will do, huh? *shrug*
I took the class, and I do not recall any secret information, vows, rituals, oaths, brainwashing techniques, suppression of freedom of thought, initiations, invitation-only stuff, or anything like that. Cult? I beg to differ.
Ha ha. Well, it can be seen as a cult (a cult can be good, your Yeshua story is one example) or a self-empowering group that have created something so unique to America from Paddy’s dull book .
Deafhood, to me, consists of motivational speakers focusing on self-improvement, encouragement, goal setting, and positive thinking. Not all of us need Deafhood. I for sure don’t because I grew up Deaf of Deaf. Ive always had that Deaf gut since I was born.
I do not recall Ella ever saying she claims to be in unique direct contact with God. I think you are okay afterall.
Ok, I’ll admit Paddy isn’t exactly beach reading. But he does make a lot of good points (once you get through it) about our history and how society and the educational system has worked on us. Being Deaf of Deaf doesn’t necessarily provide full Deafhood — there are a lot of us (Deaf of Deaf or Deaf of Hearing) who haven’t really understood all the effects of it all have been on us as a group and individually. But a lot of us have had some sense in bits and pieces that something is wrong. Paddy just provides a framework for understanding it. Give it a try! If you don’t understand something, ask us! We’ll be happy to give you a tutorial.
From what I understand Deafhood is still new concept and for me I tend to understand meaphyisics, epistomology, politics, and ethics first before I can understand what Deafhood is all about. I do not believe for most Deaf people in general understand all of these then they won’t be able to follow all of these. Deafhood requires for number of us to examine each person of Being Deaf. Deafhood is not a kind of cult at all unless you speak of ritual or worship something is involved then you might call Deafhood a cult. Defhood must be involved with virtue and what is the character of Deafhood? And my question, what is the function of being Deafhood? Do we all acquire the understanding of the concept in Deafhood?
I’m glad you brought up this “cult” and you really got my attention. I agree with you “cult” is a religion with great devotion to some person, idea, or thing, or esp, and so on.
At the end, you said “…Maybe we should just accept that”cult” label for Deafhood, after all.”
I hope you mind I ask you this questions:
Did you read the book “Deafhood” by Dr. Paddy Ladd? If so, why do you think you just accept “cult” for Deafhood? Where that indicate in the book that made you think “cult?” I hope if you can clear it up.
I did read the book but not finish it, just yet and I don’t see any impression that should be “cult.” Not even close. Also, I meet Ella and never get the impression that she is but a very respectful person. “Cult” haven’t really sit me well with “Deafhood.”
I don’t believe that the Deafhood is a cult at all. Unfortunately, your example of the cult may be oversimplified. However, I still respect you.
My personal opinion of a cult :
The cult group should be established as a closed system with a charismatic leader. The apostasy (quitting from that cult) for a cult member will be either killed or forced under the cult controls.
Sadly, some charismatic leaders took small Christian group splitting from the mainline or evangelistic Christianity. The charismatic leader claimed to be Jesus or Messiah and then decided to twist the Gospel by revising or omitting verses or chapels out of the Holy Bible.
For good example, Rev Jim Jones or Rev. David Koresh of the Branch Davidian
The Early Christianity era, many Middle East people, who don’t know Christianity, tend to label the Christianity as a cult until the people began to understand what the Christianity means. Also Jesus strongly opposed the concept of the closed system or masonic group because the gospel will always be open to all people over the world.
The Deafhood does not have either closed or open system organization and even no apostasy rule is applied. In our current time, many Deaf people, who do not know much about Deafhood, jumped their conclusions by screaming ‘CULT’ ‘CULT’ ‘CULT’ at Deafhood supporters today.
Thankfully if it is a ‘cult’ it is an American one lol…. I won’t agree on the Paddy thing because I think he is the ultimate deaf obscurist. (Or should that be ‘D’eaf obscurist ? Any psychologist would read his book and immediately suggest the man has some clinical obsession….
I don’t buy the if you don’t understand gig Don, I defy ANYONE to make sense of deafhood !
Deaf people do not need a journey to discover they are deaf, I think profound hearing loss is a dead giveaway personally. 9 out of 10 deaf have NO deaf history their parents are hearing. It’s a fact. Simply trying to get today’s deaf to form an artificial link to deaf of 200 years ago, seems pretty pointless to me. THis is living in he past, I prefer to live in the now. You cannot convince Paddy’s own countrymen who are deaf to believe in deafhood. There is no following at all here.
Hmmm… interesting vlog. When Dan commented I saw ignorance in other people’s comment, mocking at Dan. For your information, it is never appropriate to mock somebody who did not understand something.
Yes, I read the book. It is part of what inspired me to start vlogging. After I read it, I felt inspired and realized that I, and all of us, have to start getting involved and DO something rather than just sitting around and complaining about what IS. No, I don’t really think about Deafhood as a cult. I was just responding to all the critics of Deafhood who claim it is. I only said that “maybe we should just accept the ‘cult’ label” in reference to Christianity, which once was labeled a “cult” but is now a world-wide, respected religious institution of its own. Nobody would dare refer to Christianity as a “cult” today.
MM –
Can you explain what you mean by “obscurist”?
Also, you’re right that 9 out of 10 Deaf have no Deaf history in their families. I’m one of them. But I do have a link to the Deaf of 200 years ago. My parents decided to raise me orally because of Alexander Graham Bell’s influence on the educational system. I experienced a lot of social ostracism from my Hearing classmates because by being Deaf, I was unable to “fit in” to the Hearing ideals — I couldn’t understand anything that happened in a large group because (as I’m sure you know) it is impossible to lipread more than one person at a time when they are all talking over each other. I finally went to a school for the Deaf at age 13 where I learned sign language. Thus that is another link I have with Deaf of 200 years ago — I (and I think you, since you married a Deaf woman) use the sign language that was passed on to me by my Deaf cohorts of 200 years ago.
But it is very interesting that Deafhood seems to be taking more of a hold here in America than in Britain. I haven’t figured out yet why that is the case — what is the difference between our two cultures that has caused this disparity?
Dr. H–
We wouldn’t mock if he just didn’t understand. But his comment seemed like he didn’t even watch the video, just took me at face value from the summary and put his own ideas on from that. And yes, there is a little frustration on our part from all the people putting down our support of the concept as a “cult”. As you can see, I responded respectfully to Ponder Deaf’s question, because he obviously had taken the time to watch and think and was asking an honest question. But before you start pointing fingers at us for being “not nice”, please take a look at the other blogs and comments all over DeafRead (and in Deaf Village) where people have mocked Deafhood and other ideas that are not in line with their own.
And, just FYI, I am not sure you are much better. You posted your OPINIONS as “DBC Facts”. That is highly misleading and in the long run, not so “circular”.
Thanks for your response. I do get your drift and have to agree with you with some hesitation for obvious reasons. But I do not agree that every d/Deaf person needs to be exposed to Deafhood.
DonG: “But a lot of us have had some sense in bits and pieces that something is wrong.”
Yes, several things are wrong in the educational system of the deaf and hard of hearing. Part of the problem lies with the notion of parents being free to choose what they THINK is best for their children.
Wouldn’t it be great if America followed Sweden’s model if educating the deaf? Then we wouldnt have to become so cult-like.
Yes, it would be nice if America could follow Sweden’s model. But we have to be careful because apparently the Swedish model is even now being corrupted. I don’t remember the exact details of how, maybe one of the people who went there recently can clarify.
Swedish Deaf Education becoming corrupted? How? Was it interpreted this way by an ASL activist/educator? If so, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Let’s suppose if I went there, I probably wouldn’t see it as tainted. I would define the shift as a natural inclination towards meeting the fast growing population of implanted children. I f this is true, I would hope that the system would still require/expect parents to learn Swedish Sign Language.
CULT is not about religious issue all the time. Get a dictionary and read it well. Second and Third
meanings of CULT???? Ask yourself.
Look at COOL MAC addicted people. We call them MAC Cults. Cool! It’s all not about religion.
I found Deaf cults’ ignorance in hearing society. It proved Deafhood is real CULT, rejecting
diversity (d/D) or other ideas.
Deaf cults = people those who were victims of oral abuse or oppressed by hearing or phonic
things. That’s why they need to do this way.. preaching about Deafhood.
I NEVER experienced this way in my life. Then, Deafhood is not a necessary. I succeeded
many many things. Work hard, and understanding the diversity – both view sides. Instead of
one side in “TOO DEAF”. Therefore, Deaf cults are LEFTISTS.
Don, we saw through Paddy Ladd day one ! and the prize is still on offer for ANYONE who can identify EXACTLY how many times he used the capital D. Brits are by their nature very skeptical and critical of everything, that is why you don’t see ‘cults’ so much in Britain but they seem to breed in the USA, must all be Evangelists in the US of A ! I think it is the American psyche to seek out new and exciting ways to pass the time…
I still don’t see your connection to oralism in Milan. I am not oppressed by oralism, I feel more issues with sign mostly, but I don’t care who uses what so long as I can follow. I’ve traced my own family, and surprise surprise found 4 generations of deaf people in it, but none, went deaf until 30-40yrs of age, I was the first to break the duck and went at 13. None ever went to a deaf school, ever signed (I was the first to try it), I still feel it is a system of communication useless to me outside my front door sadly, where no-one in my area has any idea of sign language so, I am still into the ‘oral’ side of things, and thank God my voice is still OK. On a historical front Mr Ladd’s book falls short, there are a number of other Books on history that are more comprehensive of deaf input, Mr Ladd deliberately ignored many, and I feel hyped up the signing side of things, since history tends to show the oral user and lip-reader made most of the running. OK deaf had it tough in the past, they DON’T do so bad now in relative terms, with huge amounts of access never before imagined available to us now.
The difference is Mr Ladd didn’t start with ‘Beethoven’ for a change which had been done to death let’s face it, he wasn’t a deafie, he didn’t sign and never was a member of any deaf community either, up until then he was the only deaf person on profile. Paddy repeated himself overmuch, he could have edited a 100 pages off his book without omitting anything. I think he got lost himself via the editing process….
His definitions at the start totally undermined everything that followed, if you didn’t agree with the definition as he put it, then the book immediately became pointless. The D,d thing is colloquial only, and still in many deaf areas opposed. Indeed hated ! and ID’d as a major divider of deaf people, the Brits are not going to buy into that, as we didn’t buy into Audism either because it does the same thing. Audism became a term of abuse that was applied TO deaf people, after that, no thanks ! If we are to have equality and a level playing field then not promoting this book might be more productive. I don’t actually recommend banning, because that gives him yet another platform, and we’d rather he got none. I find apathy towards deafhood mostly is what Brits use to kill it off….
MM who is WE you are talking about? Just because you can’t be bothered to read Paddy’s book, doesn’t mean it’s rubbish, or what he writes about is tosh.
I’ve only managed to read the first chapter, and I GET where Paddy is coming from. Only those who haven’t read ythe book, or vehemently deny the conept of Deafness as a cultural and linguistic minority would denigrate the concept of Deafhood.
LOL all you want… more’s you the fool
As for the others, think of consciousness raising and you will get the concept of deafhood. The closest thing to deafhood is Gay and Lesbian conscious raising.
I won’t bother explaining this here, as there are too many intellectual bores………………. ready to put down any notion of self empowerment!
In your comment to him, you state: “And, just FYI, I am not sure you are much better. You posted your OPINIONS as “DBC Facts”. That is highly misleading and in the long run, not so ‘circular’.”
He has presented evidence–hard documents–to back his allegiations. They have been tried and judged by the people; therefore, it is far much more appropriate to refer them as “facts.”
It is YOU, who are presenting opinions. You stated “misleading,” without any actual proof. He merely presented his evidence and allowed the rest to judge. You may say it’s misleading others may say it’s revelatory.
The problem is, you don’t like what he presented. That does not change the documents from “fact” into “opinions.”
“tried and judged by the people”? Was there a Judge present? Did DBC present their side? Just because the statements were made and some people agreed with them does not make them “facts”. In fact, I think the legal term for what you are describing is “hearsay”.
Objection, your honor! Unsubstantiated and highly prejudicial to the jury! Sound like something a lawyer might say on your favorite legal drama of choice?
I said “tried and judged by the people” meaning the people are the judges here. DBC has refused to present their side: in a court of law, your physical appearance is not necessary to try you for a crime.
In fact, your absence works against you in court.
DR presented IM conversations, e-mails, and other documentations. They are not hear-say because they are addressed to him. These documents CAN and WILL hold in court–cases of arresting and trying pedophiles through online conversations have been admitted in court and were used against the defendants.
What are your objections now, uhm, counselor? Every peice he presented are admissible regardless of what you say. What’s your next objection, uhm?
MZ stated that six original core members either resigned or were pushed out. That is a fact, not hearsay.
Four of those six ex-members, MZ, Dianrez, Anne Marie, DR Hocokan, have spoken about what went on in DBC, here on DR so far. That’s a fact, not hearsay.
Those numbers are hard to ignore.
The DBC leadership has remained silent this week, except for Ella’s dressing-down of Aidan, which Aidan didn’t deserve.
In this case, it is a true trial. DBC was created because of the people, not the leaders. If the people finds that DBC misled them, it is the right of the people to punish accordingly.
A true democracy exist when the leaders are afraid of the people–not the other way around.
For leaders who are afriad of the people, don’t you think Ella and her crew are pretty bold?
You don’t want to argue because you don’t have an argument.
Not bother Ben.. He is just 23 yrs old and still learn in the real world in long way… Too many people do not check and do not their homework before offer a new argument.
Don, you know what they say about old people like you?
“Can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” Of course, you’re not going to budge, I’m not sure if you can at all; it might be a “new trick” for you. The best thing my youth can give me is time. Time will allow you to die off, and with you, your ideas of old.
That’s an advantage that I have and you do not. It is through youth, like me, your deafhood can live on. Don’t discount youth so quickly.
Just because I’m young doesn’t mean I’m stupid. I saw through your bullshit, that’s why you won’t say anything.
DBC Facts – I did agree on some facts until I realized that some facts may be biased or
misleading when DR Hocokan did not know much about the in-depth details of the
Deafhood and even worse, she did not read the Deafhood at the first place. Most
anti-Deafhood activists do not read the Deafhood book at all.
” Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark,
professionals built the Titanic” Unknown proverb.
I am really disappointed about how Deafread is becoming a “cult” blogsphere by a few people and exspecially Mishka Zena, Deafread Human editor doing encouraging of the readers into more destructive rather than constructive dialogue.
I am so shocked about Mishka Zena subtle destructive attitude towards Deaf Bilingual Coalition. Is this what Deafread owners, Tayler and Jared want to approve this negative character to be one of the Human editor?
It’s really becoming a ghetto aggregator site now.
Christianity Is Not A Cult…Or Never Was A Cult. It Was About Following The Messiah Christ Jesus. And People That Dont Accept That There Is A Being That Created Us Then Spend Eternity In Hell…Becuse Ide Rather Not. (The Big Bang Is Just A Assumption And Will Never Be Able To Be Proven).
About 20 years ago (if John E. is correct that you are 23, then it was exactly 20 years ago), I was a lot like you. If someone called me a kid (and a few did), I would have bristled at that, just as you did. And on the discussion boards, I would keep adding on to the argument, partly because I thought I was right, and partly because it is kind of fun to “match wits” with an adversary.
I think that with more time and experience in the world, you will make a fine leader in whatever it is you decide you want to lead in. But you need a little more seasoning. You will learn, as I did, that things are not always quite as black and white as they may seem, and hopefully, you will learn some pragmatism as well.
I don’t know how old Dan and Ann C. are, but if you two are in the same age bracket, then the same goes for you.
I KNEW when I posted this, that some fundamentalist Christian would jump on me for seeming to insinuate that Christianity is a cult. I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner. Watch again. I said that Christianity is now one of the world’s three major religions (those being Judaism, Islam and Christianity) [I can't remember if Buddhism is large enough to be counted as a major religion as well].
However, you will notice I used Jesus’ Hebrew name in the beginning. Why? Because Jesus WAS Jewish. In the 1st Century C.E., the dominant society of the region then called Judea was Jewish. When Jesus started going around talking about his ideas, they were quite heretical for his time — not needing to sacrifice animals at the altar, having a personal relationship with God that is not mediated through the Cohanim (High Priests), and so forth. When he started, the Jews of his time referred to his group as the “cult of Jesus”. His mother would sit around the Mah Jongg table kvetching to her friends, “OY! My bubbeleh Yeshua! I love him to pieces, but he gives me such tsouris (heartache)!” So they turned on him to try to stop his ideas from spreading. And you know the rest of the story — they convinced the Romans that he was a threat and to have something done about this guy.
By the way, if you haven’t guessed yet, I’m Jewish myself. But I have learned the history of Christianity because it’s important to learn about the history of others, so you can know more about your own through that lens as well. LEARN YOUR HISTORY! It’s not just a class to sleep through. It is a powerful tool that will help you in your life. As Santayana said, “Those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it”.
Yes, I am becoming VERY concerned about Deaf Read and our Deaf community. It seems like we are becoming more fractured on more fronts than ever. At first it was just manualism and oralism. Then it was SEE vs. ASL vs. Oralism. Then it was SEE v. ASL v. Oralism v. TC. Then it became all that plus Deafhood. Then that, plus DeafREad v. DeafVillage. And now, plus DBC/NAD/whatnext?
It depends on IQ and how much they have experiences. Not on AGES.
My age is close to yours! I have more experiences than you have… I have been working with global corporations, UN congress and deaf communities in the world under World Federation of the Deaf.
Deaf americans (especially “not all, but majority” in age of 40′s) are spoiled and thought they knew everything. But the truth is NOT ENOUGH.
But… I noticed new generation, non-deaf cults, modern age… They are getting better ones than older ones like YOU! AGEISM!
You need to listen Deaf kids who are smart and have potential talents (try to understand them), instead of saying “CUTE KIDS or PUPPIES”! It sounds insulting! AGEISM!
Even we are getting older and still learning… like them… NO difference.
The thing about diversity Don is people will have different views on things. I think many of us are now fed up with the D,d thing, deafhood, and whatever else they can dream up to drive wedges between people, because there is little doubt deafhood has contributed to divide and argument, because of its elitist focus on one sector of deaf who in turn, are being told by Mr Ladd where they should be heading. He tried telling us too but got nowhere.
We’ll tell you for nothing and save you buying Mr LAdd’s opus, that is to go intothe same room as other deaf and sit down and TALK things over,something Mr LAdd has yet to suggest. All youwill get online is those for, and against, which contributes in the long run ZILCH. Perhaps Mr Ladd has tapped into the paranoia some deaf are clearly exhibiting via “everyone is out to get us…” Far better A G Bell and the DBC and Gallaudet and those promoting division got theirs…. and someone put a stop to it all.
From what I can see it just drives deaf people further backwards not forwards.
John Egbert has insulted me before, which is why I am not responding to his comment. To me, he doesn’t exist until he shows me some respect.
You’re starting to move yourself in his category.
Neither one of you need a 25 year old telling you how to behave appropriately, do you? Have all your years taught you nothing?
First, maintain respect, Don. Don’t insult me by saying “I’m just a kid.” Secondly, we aren’t discussing the difference between fact and opinion anymore because you cannot debate my points anymore.
Admit it, I am correct and you are not. Insulting me doesn’t change that, old man. In fact, it reduces your creditability. Heed these words, well Herr Doktor, for I will not be so nice the next time.
Ouch, DonG! Your comment about Ben Vess is uncalled for. John E is generally known as an angry ex-oralist of yesteryear and his comments are often ignored by the majority of us. But, you? Come on. Smile.
DonG: “Yes, I am becoming VERY concerned about Deaf Read and our Deaf community. It seems like we are becoming more fractured on more fronts than ever. At first it was just manualism and oralism. Then it was SEE vs. ASL vs. Oralism. Then it was SEE v. ASL v. Oralism v. TC. Then it became all that plus Deafhood. Then that, plus DeafREad v. DeafVillage. And now, plus DBC/NAD/whatnext?
LET’S STOP THE INSANITY, PEOPLE!”
NACPC: I AGREE! I do have my own belief as to why this is happening. It is not the majority of the d/D who is causing the increasing unrest in the deaf world.
Your credibility as an educator/professor etc has gone down the drain when you attempt to dismiss people in the way that you have.
What is going on in deaf blogosphere is not a witch hunt.
I can honestly tell you that many of us who saw that months ago, are now not jumping with joy. We are glad the truth is out. But, it is indeed very sad.
Ok, before you all jump on the bandwagon to castigate me further, let me make one thing clear:
When I said Ben is “just a kid”, I was not referring to his ideas. He is clearly old enough to have opinions of his own, and he articulates them very well, in both writing and ASL. (And FYI, that is bilingualism. There are many Hearing people out there who can read English and speak a different language of their own. Our current President of the U.S. is one example (but I’m not so sure about his ability to read, either… he [and Cheney] didn’t seem able to read the CIA intel on Iraq so well, but I digress…).
What I was referring to was his insistence on pressing his “case” (pun intended), even when I had already indicated that I was ready to stop discussing that point. As I said, when I was his age, I did the same kind of thing. Now, I’m a little older, and (hopefully) a little wiser, and I can see that behavior for what it was. That’s all I was referring to.
I have to agree with Karen’s comment re. some teachers learn from students as well as it works both ways.
As even if we want to help the deaf babies and children’s future I think we should hear from all sorts of diverse groups not matter what their ages or experience as it’s a good tool to help make things better as I don’t see why the older ones say he’s just a kid.. ekk that does tells you something about that person’s attitude towards diversity but to just one kind.
My comment had absolutely NOTHING to do with respecting or not respecting diversity and/or youth, and EVERYTHING to do with recognizing the foibles of youth, of which I have had my share of experience with. Some of you have commented to me and and said you were closer to my age, and yet made some taunting comments which I felt were extremely immature and non-productive to the discussion, so I deleted them. It has NOTHING to do with age, and EVERYTHING to do with maturity.
But obviously, some of you have decided that you don’t like me, and are determined therefore to find fault with what I said, and nothing I say is going to make you change your minds. If that’s so, so be it. Move on, people!
I don’t hate you Don, I do think deafhood is the cause of all the problems (Well, that and the D,d things). As we are all fond of quoting, concentrate on what will unite, not what will maintain the divide, so, deafhood, D,d and all that, get rid….. you don’t need it, I don’t need it, confident deaf do not need labels, titles, or even a pseudo-cult approach, to discover they are actually deaf. You have to imagine the deaf ‘community’ is like a submarine, it goes on the surface, and it goes underwater too, but you have to be careful not to go Too deep or the whole thing implodes, implosion is what you are seeing….
I don’t hate you either. You have always presented yourself as a thoughtful commenter and blogger, and as I’ve said before, I do see that we do have some (a few, anyway) common grounds. I’ve disagreed with you, but I do understand where you are coming from.
However, Deafhood is not the cause of the problems. The problems were there WAY before Deafhood even came onto the scene. If you feel you don’t need it, fine. I feel it has a lot of explanatory power for why we have had these problems.
As for implosion, yes, that is what we are seeing. And I don’t want to see it. And I don’t think you do either.
Dan said,
July 11, 2008 @ 9:26 pm
Cool. You got that idea from me. I started bringing up a word “DEAF CULT” to Deafread blogs. No one claimed or agreed it. Until now….
Pah! You got it. Wave hands!
That is reality. Yes, Deafhood = Cult. It could be no good or good.
DrDonG said,
July 11, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
Dan,
Did you watch the video? I was being facetious.
Jenny said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:10 pm
Dan,
Remind me to explain the idea of a “joke” to you someday.
And, sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren’t the first to talk about Deafhood as a cult. That’s been going on for months now… and I’ve been finding it amusing how a small group is constantly coming up with new terms to denigrate some people. Sad what some people will do, huh? *shrug*
I took the class, and I do not recall any secret information, vows, rituals, oaths, brainwashing techniques, suppression of freedom of thought, initiations, invitation-only stuff, or anything like that. Cult? I beg to differ.
Anon said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:11 pm
LOL….. Apparently Dan isn’t very bright!
DrDonG said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:25 pm
Jenny —
You forgot the kidnapping, blindfolding, keeping us in the small dark closet for weeks and months on end….
–DonG.
native asl/ci parent and child said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:26 pm
Ha ha. Well, it can be seen as a cult (a cult can be good, your Yeshua story is one example) or a self-empowering group that have created something so unique to America from Paddy’s dull book .
Deafhood, to me, consists of motivational speakers focusing on self-improvement, encouragement, goal setting, and positive thinking. Not all of us need Deafhood. I for sure don’t because I grew up Deaf of Deaf. Ive always had that Deaf gut since I was born.
I do not recall Ella ever saying she claims to be in unique direct contact with God. I think you are okay afterall.
DrDonG said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:38 pm
N.A.C.I.P&C:
Ok, I’ll admit Paddy isn’t exactly beach reading. But he does make a lot of good points (once you get through it) about our history and how society and the educational system has worked on us. Being Deaf of Deaf doesn’t necessarily provide full Deafhood — there are a lot of us (Deaf of Deaf or Deaf of Hearing) who haven’t really understood all the effects of it all have been on us as a group and individually. But a lot of us have had some sense in bits and pieces that something is wrong. Paddy just provides a framework for understanding it. Give it a try! If you don’t understand something, ask us! We’ll be happy to give you a tutorial.
Platonic's Eye said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:49 pm
From what I understand Deafhood is still new concept and for me I tend to understand meaphyisics, epistomology, politics, and ethics first before I can understand what Deafhood is all about. I do not believe for most Deaf people in general understand all of these then they won’t be able to follow all of these. Deafhood requires for number of us to examine each person of Being Deaf. Deafhood is not a kind of cult at all unless you speak of ritual or worship something is involved then you might call Deafhood a cult. Defhood must be involved with virtue and what is the character of Deafhood? And my question, what is the function of being Deafhood? Do we all acquire the understanding of the concept in Deafhood?
The Ponder Deaf Man said,
July 11, 2008 @ 10:53 pm
Hello Dr DonG,
I’m glad you brought up this “cult” and you really got my attention. I agree with you “cult” is a religion with great devotion to some person, idea, or thing, or esp, and so on.
At the end, you said “…Maybe we should just accept that”cult” label for Deafhood, after all.”
I hope you mind I ask you this questions:
Did you read the book “Deafhood” by Dr. Paddy Ladd? If so, why do you think you just accept “cult” for Deafhood? Where that indicate in the book that made you think “cult?” I hope if you can clear it up.
I did read the book but not finish it, just yet and I don’t see any impression that should be “cult.” Not even close. Also, I meet Ella and never get the impression that she is but a very respectful person. “Cult” haven’t really sit me well with “Deafhood.”
Thank you
The Ponder Deaf Man
Dan said,
July 11, 2008 @ 11:03 pm
Okay. You are all geniuses. Ella is definitely Deaf Cults, like you.. who believes in Deafhood.
Think Big D in this world. Praise Deaf cults! Fantastic! But…. hmmmm…
David Ennis said,
July 12, 2008 @ 12:34 am
I don’t believe that the Deafhood is a cult at all. Unfortunately, your example of the cult may be oversimplified. However, I still respect you.
My personal opinion of a cult :
The cult group should be established as a closed system with a charismatic leader. The apostasy (quitting from that cult) for a cult member will be either killed or forced under the cult controls.
Sadly, some charismatic leaders took small Christian group splitting from the mainline or evangelistic Christianity. The charismatic leader claimed to be Jesus or Messiah and then decided to twist the Gospel by revising or omitting verses or chapels out of the Holy Bible.
For good example, Rev Jim Jones or Rev. David Koresh of the Branch Davidian
The Early Christianity era, many Middle East people, who don’t know Christianity, tend to label the Christianity as a cult until the people began to understand what the Christianity means. Also Jesus strongly opposed the concept of the closed system or masonic group because the gospel will always be open to all people over the world.
The Deafhood does not have either closed or open system organization and even no apostasy rule is applied. In our current time, many Deaf people, who do not know much about Deafhood, jumped their conclusions by screaming ‘CULT’ ‘CULT’ ‘CULT’ at Deafhood supporters today.
.
MM said,
July 12, 2008 @ 1:46 am
Thankfully if it is a ‘cult’ it is an American one lol…. I won’t agree on the Paddy thing because I think he is the ultimate deaf obscurist. (Or should that be ‘D’eaf obscurist ? Any psychologist would read his book and immediately suggest the man has some clinical obsession….
I don’t buy the if you don’t understand gig Don, I defy ANYONE to make sense of deafhood !
Deaf people do not need a journey to discover they are deaf, I think profound hearing loss is a dead giveaway personally. 9 out of 10 deaf have NO deaf history their parents are hearing. It’s a fact. Simply trying to get today’s deaf to form an artificial link to deaf of 200 years ago, seems pretty pointless to me. THis is living in he past, I prefer to live in the now. You cannot convince Paddy’s own countrymen who are deaf to believe in deafhood. There is no following at all here.
DR Hocokan said,
July 12, 2008 @ 5:37 am
Hmmm… interesting vlog. When Dan commented I saw ignorance in other people’s comment, mocking at Dan. For your information, it is never appropriate to mock somebody who did not understand something.
DrDonG said,
July 12, 2008 @ 6:07 am
Ponder Deaf –
Yes, I read the book. It is part of what inspired me to start vlogging. After I read it, I felt inspired and realized that I, and all of us, have to start getting involved and DO something rather than just sitting around and complaining about what IS. No, I don’t really think about Deafhood as a cult. I was just responding to all the critics of Deafhood who claim it is. I only said that “maybe we should just accept the ‘cult’ label” in reference to Christianity, which once was labeled a “cult” but is now a world-wide, respected religious institution of its own. Nobody would dare refer to Christianity as a “cult” today.
MM –
Can you explain what you mean by “obscurist”?
Also, you’re right that 9 out of 10 Deaf have no Deaf history in their families. I’m one of them. But I do have a link to the Deaf of 200 years ago. My parents decided to raise me orally because of Alexander Graham Bell’s influence on the educational system. I experienced a lot of social ostracism from my Hearing classmates because by being Deaf, I was unable to “fit in” to the Hearing ideals — I couldn’t understand anything that happened in a large group because (as I’m sure you know) it is impossible to lipread more than one person at a time when they are all talking over each other. I finally went to a school for the Deaf at age 13 where I learned sign language. Thus that is another link I have with Deaf of 200 years ago — I (and I think you, since you married a Deaf woman) use the sign language that was passed on to me by my Deaf cohorts of 200 years ago.
But it is very interesting that Deafhood seems to be taking more of a hold here in America than in Britain. I haven’t figured out yet why that is the case — what is the difference between our two cultures that has caused this disparity?
Dr. H–
We wouldn’t mock if he just didn’t understand. But his comment seemed like he didn’t even watch the video, just took me at face value from the summary and put his own ideas on from that. And yes, there is a little frustration on our part from all the people putting down our support of the concept as a “cult”. As you can see, I responded respectfully to Ponder Deaf’s question, because he obviously had taken the time to watch and think and was asking an honest question. But before you start pointing fingers at us for being “not nice”, please take a look at the other blogs and comments all over DeafRead (and in Deaf Village) where people have mocked Deafhood and other ideas that are not in line with their own.
And, just FYI, I am not sure you are much better. You posted your OPINIONS as “DBC Facts”. That is highly misleading and in the long run, not so “circular”.
native asl/ci parent and child said,
July 12, 2008 @ 8:29 am
Thanks for your response. I do get your drift and have to agree with you with some hesitation for obvious reasons. But I do not agree that every d/Deaf person needs to be exposed to Deafhood.
DonG: “But a lot of us have had some sense in bits and pieces that something is wrong.”
Yes, several things are wrong in the educational system of the deaf and hard of hearing. Part of the problem lies with the notion of parents being free to choose what they THINK is best for their children.
Wouldn’t it be great if America followed Sweden’s model if educating the deaf? Then we wouldnt have to become so cult-like.
The Ponder Deaf Man said,
July 12, 2008 @ 8:40 am
Dr. DonG,
Thank you for doing this to get to the point. I’m learning this new journey as a deaf person
The Ponder Deaf Man
DrDonG said,
July 12, 2008 @ 8:45 am
Yes, it would be nice if America could follow Sweden’s model. But we have to be careful because apparently the Swedish model is even now being corrupted. I don’t remember the exact details of how, maybe one of the people who went there recently can clarify.
native asl/ci parent and child said,
July 12, 2008 @ 9:41 am
Swedish Deaf Education becoming corrupted? How? Was it interpreted this way by an ASL activist/educator? If so, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Let’s suppose if I went there, I probably wouldn’t see it as tainted. I would define the shift as a natural inclination towards meeting the fast growing population of implanted children. I f this is true, I would hope that the system would still require/expect parents to learn Swedish Sign Language.
Jenny said,
July 12, 2008 @ 9:52 am
Don, *laugh* you’re right – yeah, we were kidnapped and locked up. *eyeroll*
Gah. This whole thing has become a witch hunt. Thank you so much for posting this…
Ben Vess said,
July 12, 2008 @ 9:54 am
To give you a taste of your own medicine, DonG, I should make a mockery out of you for not understanding the difference between “opinion” and “fact.”
But, I digress.
I believe DR has a better understanding of when and how to present something as fact, than you do. Why don’t you learn from him?
-Ben
Dan said,
July 12, 2008 @ 10:05 am
CULT is not about religious issue all the time. Get a dictionary and read it well. Second and Third
meanings of CULT???? Ask yourself.
Look at COOL MAC addicted people. We call them MAC Cults. Cool! It’s all not about religion.
I found Deaf cults’ ignorance in hearing society. It proved Deafhood is real CULT, rejecting
diversity (d/D) or other ideas.
Deaf cults = people those who were victims of oral abuse or oppressed by hearing or phonic
things. That’s why they need to do this way.. preaching about Deafhood.
I NEVER experienced this way in my life. Then, Deafhood is not a necessary. I succeeded
many many things. Work hard, and understanding the diversity – both view sides. Instead of
one side in “TOO DEAF”. Therefore, Deaf cults are LEFTISTS.
MM said,
July 12, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Don, we saw through Paddy Ladd day one ! and the prize is still on offer for ANYONE who can identify EXACTLY how many times he used the capital D. Brits are by their nature very skeptical and critical of everything, that is why you don’t see ‘cults’ so much in Britain but they seem to breed in the USA, must all be Evangelists in the US of A ! I think it is the American psyche to seek out new and exciting ways to pass the time…
I still don’t see your connection to oralism in Milan. I am not oppressed by oralism, I feel more issues with sign mostly, but I don’t care who uses what so long as I can follow. I’ve traced my own family, and surprise surprise found 4 generations of deaf people in it, but none, went deaf until 30-40yrs of age, I was the first to break the duck and went at 13. None ever went to a deaf school, ever signed (I was the first to try it), I still feel it is a system of communication useless to me outside my front door sadly, where no-one in my area has any idea of sign language so, I am still into the ‘oral’ side of things, and thank God my voice is still OK. On a historical front Mr Ladd’s book falls short, there are a number of other Books on history that are more comprehensive of deaf input, Mr Ladd deliberately ignored many, and I feel hyped up the signing side of things, since history tends to show the oral user and lip-reader made most of the running. OK deaf had it tough in the past, they DON’T do so bad now in relative terms, with huge amounts of access never before imagined available to us now.
The difference is Mr Ladd didn’t start with ‘Beethoven’ for a change which had been done to death let’s face it, he wasn’t a deafie, he didn’t sign and never was a member of any deaf community either, up until then he was the only deaf person on profile. Paddy repeated himself overmuch, he could have edited a 100 pages off his book without omitting anything. I think he got lost himself via the editing process….
His definitions at the start totally undermined everything that followed, if you didn’t agree with the definition as he put it, then the book immediately became pointless. The D,d thing is colloquial only, and still in many deaf areas opposed. Indeed hated ! and ID’d as a major divider of deaf people, the Brits are not going to buy into that, as we didn’t buy into Audism either because it does the same thing. Audism became a term of abuse that was applied TO deaf people, after that, no thanks ! If we are to have equality and a level playing field then not promoting this book might be more productive. I don’t actually recommend banning, because that gives him yet another platform, and we’d rather he got none. I find apathy towards deafhood mostly is what Brits use to kill it off….
DrDonG said,
July 12, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
Ok, Ben, I’ll bite…. when and where did I not understand the difference between “opinion” and “fact”? And who is “DR”?
–DonG.
Tony Nicholas said,
July 12, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
MM who is WE you are talking about? Just because you can’t be bothered to read Paddy’s book, doesn’t mean it’s rubbish, or what he writes about is tosh.
I’ve only managed to read the first chapter, and I GET where Paddy is coming from. Only those who haven’t read ythe book, or vehemently deny the conept of Deafness as a cultural and linguistic minority would denigrate the concept of Deafhood.
LOL all you want… more’s you the fool
As for the others, think of consciousness raising and you will get the concept of deafhood. The closest thing to deafhood is Gay and Lesbian conscious raising.
I won’t bother explaining this here, as there are too many intellectual bores………………. ready to put down any notion of self empowerment!
Ben Vess said,
July 12, 2008 @ 5:43 pm
DR (DR Hocokan), to clarify my meaning.
In your comment to him, you state: “And, just FYI, I am not sure you are much better. You posted your OPINIONS as “DBC Facts”. That is highly misleading and in the long run, not so ‘circular’.”
He has presented evidence–hard documents–to back his allegiations. They have been tried and judged by the people; therefore, it is far much more appropriate to refer them as “facts.”
It is YOU, who are presenting opinions. You stated “misleading,” without any actual proof. He merely presented his evidence and allowed the rest to judge. You may say it’s misleading others may say it’s revelatory.
The problem is, you don’t like what he presented. That does not change the documents from “fact” into “opinions.”
-ben
DrDonG said,
July 12, 2008 @ 5:54 pm
Ben,
That’s what I thought you were referring to.
“tried and judged by the people”? Was there a Judge present? Did DBC present their side? Just because the statements were made and some people agreed with them does not make them “facts”. In fact, I think the legal term for what you are describing is “hearsay”.
Objection, your honor! Unsubstantiated and highly prejudicial to the jury! Sound like something a lawyer might say on your favorite legal drama of choice?
Ben Vess said,
July 12, 2008 @ 6:07 pm
Don,
I said “tried and judged by the people” meaning the people are the judges here. DBC has refused to present their side: in a court of law, your physical appearance is not necessary to try you for a crime.
In fact, your absence works against you in court.
DR presented IM conversations, e-mails, and other documentations. They are not hear-say because they are addressed to him. These documents CAN and WILL hold in court–cases of arresting and trying pedophiles through online conversations have been admitted in court and were used against the defendants.
What are your objections now, uhm, counselor? Every peice he presented are admissible regardless of what you say. What’s your next objection, uhm?
-Ben
DrDonG said,
July 12, 2008 @ 6:12 pm
It’s still not a true trial. But, whatever, Ben. I’m not going to argue with you further on that.
Ann_C said,
July 12, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
MZ stated that six original core members either resigned or were pushed out. That is a fact, not hearsay.
Four of those six ex-members, MZ, Dianrez, Anne Marie, DR Hocokan, have spoken about what went on in DBC, here on DR so far. That’s a fact, not hearsay.
Those numbers are hard to ignore.
The DBC leadership has remained silent this week, except for Ella’s dressing-down of Aidan, which Aidan didn’t deserve.
Their silence is very telling.
Ben Vess said,
July 12, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
In this case, it is a true trial. DBC was created because of the people, not the leaders. If the people finds that DBC misled them, it is the right of the people to punish accordingly.
A true democracy exist when the leaders are afraid of the people–not the other way around.
For leaders who are afriad of the people, don’t you think Ella and her crew are pretty bold?
You don’t want to argue because you don’t have an argument.
Be honest.
-Ben
John said,
July 12, 2008 @ 7:31 pm
Hi Don,
Not bother Ben.. He is just 23 yrs old and still learn in the real world in long way… Too many people do not check and do not their homework before offer a new argument.
DrDonG said,
July 12, 2008 @ 7:40 pm
Hi John –
Yeah, that’s why I’m not responding any more to Ben on this one. He is still just a kid.
nacpac said,
July 12, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
Go check http://www.dbcfacts.com and click Barry Sewell’s Deafhood vlog (middle column).
I share Barry’s views of Deafhood. I also do see the wonderful effects of Deafhood among people who are inspired by it.
Not every Deaf person need Deafhood.
Ben Vess said,
July 12, 2008 @ 7:54 pm
Ah, my youth.
Don, you know what they say about old people like you?
“Can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” Of course, you’re not going to budge, I’m not sure if you can at all; it might be a “new trick” for you. The best thing my youth can give me is time. Time will allow you to die off, and with you, your ideas of old.
That’s an advantage that I have and you do not. It is through youth, like me, your deafhood can live on. Don’t discount youth so quickly.
Just because I’m young doesn’t mean I’m stupid. I saw through your bullshit, that’s why you won’t say anything.
Bullshit doesn’t taste real nice, I’m sure.
-Ben
David Ennis said,
July 12, 2008 @ 7:56 pm
DBC Facts – I did agree on some facts until I realized that some facts may be biased or
misleading when DR Hocokan did not know much about the in-depth details of the
Deafhood and even worse, she did not read the Deafhood at the first place. Most
anti-Deafhood activists do not read the Deafhood book at all.
” Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark,
professionals built the Titanic” Unknown proverb.
Jon said,
July 12, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
I am really disappointed about how Deafread is becoming a “cult” blogsphere by a few people and exspecially Mishka Zena, Deafread Human editor doing encouraging of the readers into more destructive rather than constructive dialogue.
I am so shocked about Mishka Zena subtle destructive attitude towards Deaf Bilingual Coalition. Is this what Deafread owners, Tayler and Jared want to approve this negative character to be one of the Human editor?
It’s really becoming a ghetto aggregator site now.
Do you have the same concern?
Dan said,
July 12, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
DrDonG and John.
You are all AGEISM!! and Deaf Cults! Behind the real modernized world.
Still learning?? What a joke! How come, you had a difficult time to understand the real meaning of Diversity. Very simple term.
Everyone understands it very well. Corporate, Government anywhere, got it. Except Deaf cults!
Shadow said,
July 12, 2008 @ 9:08 pm
Christianity Is Not A Cult…Or Never Was A Cult. It Was About Following The Messiah Christ Jesus. And People That Dont Accept That There Is A Being That Created Us Then Spend Eternity In Hell…Becuse Ide Rather Not. (The Big Bang Is Just A Assumption And Will Never Be Able To Be Proven).
Ann_C said,
July 12, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
DrDonG~
Patronizing youth dates you, Professor.
DrDonG said,
July 13, 2008 @ 12:30 am
*sigh*
Ben,
About 20 years ago (if John E. is correct that you are 23, then it was exactly 20 years ago), I was a lot like you. If someone called me a kid (and a few did), I would have bristled at that, just as you did. And on the discussion boards, I would keep adding on to the argument, partly because I thought I was right, and partly because it is kind of fun to “match wits” with an adversary.
I think that with more time and experience in the world, you will make a fine leader in whatever it is you decide you want to lead in. But you need a little more seasoning. You will learn, as I did, that things are not always quite as black and white as they may seem, and hopefully, you will learn some pragmatism as well.
I don’t know how old Dan and Ann C. are, but if you two are in the same age bracket, then the same goes for you.
DrDonG said,
July 13, 2008 @ 12:42 am
Shadow,
I KNEW when I posted this, that some fundamentalist Christian would jump on me for seeming to insinuate that Christianity is a cult. I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner. Watch again. I said that Christianity is now one of the world’s three major religions (those being Judaism, Islam and Christianity) [I can't remember if Buddhism is large enough to be counted as a major religion as well].
However, you will notice I used Jesus’ Hebrew name in the beginning. Why? Because Jesus WAS Jewish. In the 1st Century C.E., the dominant society of the region then called Judea was Jewish. When Jesus started going around talking about his ideas, they were quite heretical for his time — not needing to sacrifice animals at the altar, having a personal relationship with God that is not mediated through the Cohanim (High Priests), and so forth. When he started, the Jews of his time referred to his group as the “cult of Jesus”. His mother would sit around the Mah Jongg table kvetching to her friends, “OY! My bubbeleh Yeshua! I love him to pieces, but he gives me such tsouris (heartache)!” So they turned on him to try to stop his ideas from spreading. And you know the rest of the story — they convinced the Romans that he was a threat and to have something done about this guy.
By the way, if you haven’t guessed yet, I’m Jewish myself. But I have learned the history of Christianity because it’s important to learn about the history of others, so you can know more about your own through that lens as well. LEARN YOUR HISTORY! It’s not just a class to sleep through. It is a powerful tool that will help you in your life. As Santayana said, “Those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it”.
DrDonG said,
July 13, 2008 @ 12:46 am
John,
Yes, I am becoming VERY concerned about Deaf Read and our Deaf community. It seems like we are becoming more fractured on more fronts than ever. At first it was just manualism and oralism. Then it was SEE vs. ASL vs. Oralism. Then it was SEE v. ASL v. Oralism v. TC. Then it became all that plus Deafhood. Then that, plus DeafREad v. DeafVillage. And now, plus DBC/NAD/whatnext?
LET’S STOP THE INSANITY, PEOPLE!
Dan said,
July 13, 2008 @ 12:55 am
It depends on IQ and how much they have experiences. Not on AGES.
My age is close to yours! I have more experiences than you have… I have been working with global corporations, UN congress and deaf communities in the world under World Federation of the Deaf.
Deaf americans (especially “not all, but majority” in age of 40′s) are spoiled and thought they knew everything. But the truth is NOT ENOUGH.
But… I noticed new generation, non-deaf cults, modern age… They are getting better ones than older ones like YOU! AGEISM!
You need to listen Deaf kids who are smart and have potential talents (try to understand them), instead of saying “CUTE KIDS or PUPPIES”! It sounds insulting! AGEISM!
Even we are getting older and still learning… like them… NO difference.
Deafhood = CULT. PERIOD.
MM said,
July 13, 2008 @ 1:37 am
The thing about diversity Don is people will have different views on things. I think many of us are now fed up with the D,d thing, deafhood, and whatever else they can dream up to drive wedges between people, because there is little doubt deafhood has contributed to divide and argument, because of its elitist focus on one sector of deaf who in turn, are being told by Mr Ladd where they should be heading. He tried telling us too but got nowhere.
We’ll tell you for nothing and save you buying Mr LAdd’s opus, that is to go intothe same room as other deaf and sit down and TALK things over,something Mr LAdd has yet to suggest. All youwill get online is those for, and against, which contributes in the long run ZILCH. Perhaps Mr Ladd has tapped into the paranoia some deaf are clearly exhibiting via “everyone is out to get us…” Far better A G Bell and the DBC and Gallaudet and those promoting division got theirs…. and someone put a stop to it all.
From what I can see it just drives deaf people further backwards not forwards.
Ben Vess said,
July 13, 2008 @ 4:03 am
DonG,
You are no adversary.
Don’t put yourself there.
John Egbert has insulted me before, which is why I am not responding to his comment. To me, he doesn’t exist until he shows me some respect.
You’re starting to move yourself in his category.
Neither one of you need a 25 year old telling you how to behave appropriately, do you? Have all your years taught you nothing?
First, maintain respect, Don. Don’t insult me by saying “I’m just a kid.” Secondly, we aren’t discussing the difference between fact and opinion anymore because you cannot debate my points anymore.
Admit it, I am correct and you are not. Insulting me doesn’t change that, old man. In fact, it reduces your creditability. Heed these words, well Herr Doktor, for I will not be so nice the next time.
-Ben
Karen Mayes said,
July 13, 2008 @ 6:42 am
True teachers learn from students who are often younger than the teachers.
native asl/ci parent and child said,
July 13, 2008 @ 9:15 am
Ouch, DonG! Your comment about Ben Vess is uncalled for. John E is generally known as an angry ex-oralist of yesteryear and his comments are often ignored by the majority of us. But, you? Come on. Smile.
native asl/ci parent and child said,
July 13, 2008 @ 9:22 am
DonG: “Yes, I am becoming VERY concerned about Deaf Read and our Deaf community. It seems like we are becoming more fractured on more fronts than ever. At first it was just manualism and oralism. Then it was SEE vs. ASL vs. Oralism. Then it was SEE v. ASL v. Oralism v. TC. Then it became all that plus Deafhood. Then that, plus DeafREad v. DeafVillage. And now, plus DBC/NAD/whatnext?
LET’S STOP THE INSANITY, PEOPLE!”
NACPC: I AGREE! I do have my own belief as to why this is happening. It is not the majority of the d/D who is causing the increasing unrest in the deaf world.
Maybe I should do a vlog about this one day.
Candy said,
July 13, 2008 @ 10:07 am
DonG,
Your credibility as an educator/professor etc has gone down the drain when you attempt to dismiss people in the way that you have.
What is going on in deaf blogosphere is not a witch hunt.
I can honestly tell you that many of us who saw that months ago, are now not jumping with joy. We are glad the truth is out. But, it is indeed very sad.
Most of us wished it isn’t true.
But, it’s the truth.
Deal with it.
Shadow said,
July 13, 2008 @ 10:34 am
I’m not jumping on you just submitting my ideas…
Shadow said,
July 13, 2008 @ 10:34 am
Or thoughts…
Ann_C said,
July 13, 2008 @ 10:50 am
I’m older than you, Professor, and I’ve moved on.
MM said,
July 13, 2008 @ 11:29 am
All is confusion Karen, that’s the idea
DrDonG said,
July 13, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
Ok, before you all jump on the bandwagon to castigate me further, let me make one thing clear:
When I said Ben is “just a kid”, I was not referring to his ideas. He is clearly old enough to have opinions of his own, and he articulates them very well, in both writing and ASL. (And FYI, that is bilingualism. There are many Hearing people out there who can read English and speak a different language of their own. Our current President of the U.S. is one example (but I’m not so sure about his ability to read, either… he [and Cheney] didn’t seem able to read the CIA intel on Iraq so well, but I digress…).
What I was referring to was his insistence on pressing his “case” (pun intended), even when I had already indicated that I was ready to stop discussing that point. As I said, when I was his age, I did the same kind of thing. Now, I’m a little older, and (hopefully) a little wiser, and I can see that behavior for what it was. That’s all I was referring to.
We done with that?
Susan said,
July 13, 2008 @ 3:16 pm
I have to agree with Karen’s comment re. some teachers learn from students as well as it works both ways.
As even if we want to help the deaf babies and children’s future I think we should hear from all sorts of diverse groups not matter what their ages or experience as it’s a good tool to help make things better as I don’t see why the older ones say he’s just a kid.. ekk that does tells you something about that person’s attitude towards diversity but to just one kind.
Namaste,
Susan
DrDonG said,
July 13, 2008 @ 4:25 pm
Once again,
My comment had absolutely NOTHING to do with respecting or not respecting diversity and/or youth, and EVERYTHING to do with recognizing the foibles of youth, of which I have had my share of experience with. Some of you have commented to me and and said you were closer to my age, and yet made some taunting comments which I felt were extremely immature and non-productive to the discussion, so I deleted them. It has NOTHING to do with age, and EVERYTHING to do with maturity.
But obviously, some of you have decided that you don’t like me, and are determined therefore to find fault with what I said, and nothing I say is going to make you change your minds. If that’s so, so be it. Move on, people!
MM said,
July 14, 2008 @ 9:00 am
I don’t hate you Don, I do think deafhood is the cause of all the problems (Well, that and the D,d things). As we are all fond of quoting, concentrate on what will unite, not what will maintain the divide, so, deafhood, D,d and all that, get rid….. you don’t need it, I don’t need it, confident deaf do not need labels, titles, or even a pseudo-cult approach, to discover they are actually deaf. You have to imagine the deaf ‘community’ is like a submarine, it goes on the surface, and it goes underwater too, but you have to be careful not to go Too deep or the whole thing implodes, implosion is what you are seeing….
DrDonG said,
July 14, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
MM,
I don’t hate you either. You have always presented yourself as a thoughtful commenter and blogger, and as I’ve said before, I do see that we do have some (a few, anyway) common grounds. I’ve disagreed with you, but I do understand where you are coming from.
However, Deafhood is not the cause of the problems. The problems were there WAY before Deafhood even came onto the scene. If you feel you don’t need it, fine. I feel it has a lot of explanatory power for why we have had these problems.
As for implosion, yes, that is what we are seeing. And I don’t want to see it. And I don’t think you do either.