We all have been abused by Oralism!
MishkaZena’s recent posts on the experiences of physical and sexual abuse (and the stories by Jack Barr, Misha, and others) due to oralism is important for us all to know about, but it is important for us all to know that we all have been abused and affected by oralism in one way or another. I describe how Oralism has done this to us here
nacpac said,
August 7, 2008 @ 8:55 pm
Excellent post. these stories aren’t new to the Deaf community. With the advent of technology such as the internet, horror stories of d/Deaf children of Oralism are finally out in the open!
I KNOW exactly what hearing parents might be thinking as they are watching this vlog of yours. They most likely would say that is the reason why their children have cochlear implants. They WANT them to be able to talk so they wouldn’t experience “abuse”. They most likely would assume that the victims you mentioned in your vlog are of profoundly deaf people without the cochlear implant technology.
There ARE children with CI who still experience “abuse” since they are not able to participate fully in classroom discussions, playground conversations, family dinners, etc. It is still happening nowadays even with kids with cochlear implants.
I say this as a deaf mother of a deaf child with a cochlear implant.
Oral Deaf education has done wonders for my child to be able to talk for himself and understand some spoken conversations, BUT I would be OUT of my mind if I raised my child in PURE Oralism. My child uses ASL/signed English whenever he wishes. He has a sign language interpreter in the classroom whenever he needs one.
Good vlog.
drhocokan said,
August 7, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
(Comment deleted)
(Don G. here) — I have already detailed this man’s predatory actions against the Intertribal Deaf Council, Deaf Read, and his home community. I stated very clearly that we as a community should not allow this man to further poison us with his divisive and destructive deeds and thoughts. While I have no control over other bloggers, I am doing my part here by preventing him from spreading his seeds of doubt and dissension on my site. If he had made a comment here several weeks ago, I would have had a blisteringly scathing response ready for him. I have since then cooled off, and this is the nicest response I can offer here.
Candy said,
August 7, 2008 @ 10:39 pm
You’re downplaying the real abuse that occurs to these people that have experienced real abuse.
Discrimination and real abuse are not the same.
Shifting blame instead of holding the person responsible is irresponsible of you.
AGB has nothing to do with any of the things that you have explained.
That is shifting blame.
What happened to Jack, he should hold the teacher and foster parent responsible, not AGB.
If you have something that shows that AGB had dictated to the educational system that they have to use physical measures to get these kids in line with speaking and listening, then, I’ll say you have something, but until then, don’t go around shifting blame. It’s very irresponsible for you to do that.
Still going after AGB? wow. I feel sorry for you.
Anonymous said,
August 7, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
Candy,
You’re being too concrete bound in your analysis. If the teacher is following
an abusive philosophy, then its the people who promote the philosophy
who are to blame.
DrDonG said,
August 7, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
Candy –
Nice to see you back. Hadn’t gotten any comments from you for a while. Thought you were boycotting (or should that be “girlcotting”?) me.
I am not downplaying their abuse at all — it is real, and it is heartbreaking to listen to. But, all the things I listed can be traced back to the Oralist system and consequently, AGBell. Even if some of those things existed before AGB, AGB could have done a lot to prevent or diminish those things, like attitudes towards those who don’t speak well. But did AGB do that? Of course not! That would have hurt their mission.
Blame can be held on several levels. The first is obviously the individuals who perpetrated these abuses. The second is those who abetted the abuses, by remaining silent or continuing to pass on the attitudes that led to abuses. And the third is those who actively promoted those abuses by dehumanizing Deaf people who failed to meet the Hearing standard in any way; i.e. AGB.
And no shifting of blame is being done here. Plenty of it to go around. It would be irresponsible of me not to make sure blame is put on the shoulders of those responsible.
Paul said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:59 am
Very good! You said it is abuse 10 times in your video. I FULLY agree with you! I have been through it and spent the last 40 years witnessing many and many abuses in the community from cradle to grave. This is soooooo sad!!!! AGB is to be held accountable for crimes against deaf humanity! Those morons who perpetuate AGB’s practices need to see head shrinkers! Thank you for making my day with your video! GOOD JOB! Hands waving in air! =)
hedor said,
August 8, 2008 @ 5:00 am
Here you go…you nailed candy. I wanted to say so badly…I have wondered for a while…about AGBell should have done to prevent the abuse in oral schools? AGBell already knew and done nothing about it? AGBell’s people tell us that all stories are the past and those people who abused deaf kids are too old and dead should be held accountable for what they done, that is all craps. They are trying toooo HARD to tell them to forget the bad experience and showing the modern methods much better, even with CI technologies. THAT is Misdirecting toward them!!
The Rogue said,
August 8, 2008 @ 6:50 am
Dr.Don G.
I agreed with you. It’s called communication abused.
Cheers
The Rogue
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 7:06 am
I totally completely agree with Candy. You didn’t read Misha’s blog clearly. The physical and sexual abuse is not only because of oralism. Many of us who grew up at the residential schools for the deaf, using ASL, were also physically, emotionally, verbally, mentally, and sexually abused like I was. It doesn’t matter what language we, each victim, used. Oralism and AGBell should NOT be blamed for all the abuses we endured!
John said,
August 8, 2008 @ 7:32 am
Excactly…. Look at the Catholic chruch.. ( Vactin, Italy took responsible for this action ).. Look at The mississonary chruch did abuse, force, and threat to the Native America for having to learn the speaking in English language and convert to White Culture. ( Federal Goverment took responsible for this action ).. Oralism system in Deaf Education.. ( AGBell should take responsible for this action too. ) They did NOT instruct them to abuse the kids but they already knew many different happen at the school across North America. They did Not stop them in any futher. Now, our time tells them to stop this kind of practice in our Deaf communities. It is time to return back to Deaf professional to take care of Deaf Education.
Dean said,
August 8, 2008 @ 7:55 am
Wow! Great post. I am very grateful you are out there and speaking out against oralism — it can be in either subtle or outright form. Of course, no one can manage to escape from being abused at all. Like you said, each of us is affected one way or another.
Also I am very appreciative of your efforts to rightly protect us viewers from repeatedly divisive and destructive deeds and thoughts (which have become so obviously harassing by itself).
Dean
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 7:58 am
Margaret –
You’re forgetting that for 100 years, the residential schools too were primarily Oral. The teachers working at the schools had been trained by Oralist-influenced training programs. So yes, AGBell can be held responsible, in part, for the abuses that you endured, because they promoted the attitudes that to be Deaf is to be less than human, unless one can speak or hear, resulting in staff who engaged in such dehumanizing behavior as you experienced. As I already said, blame can be placed on several levels.
John –
A good comparison. The Church definitely does not endorse abuse, yet encouraged attitudes which would foster abuse (Native Americans have not achieved salvation through Jesus, and live in “heathen” ways, therefore they are not fully human and any means necessary to ensure they reach this “salvation” is silently condoned). I think (but I am not sure on this) that they have by now issued a formal apology to the Native nations for their silence in the past.
RLM said,
August 8, 2008 @ 7:59 am
I laid out such abuses existed in my former residential school for the deaf, WV School for the Deaf in Romney, WV BECAUSE of the Combined System (speech and sign language combined) use at that very same school.
If not for the existence of Combined System at the WV School for the Deaf in the first place. The school would be less likely to hire many audistic individuals to impose their ideological beliefs, ex. AGBell and unworkable educational means (approaches).
I got physically abused by all the audistic staff and teaching members, not the pure ASL users. Those staff members and teaching faculty just reinforced the AGBell philsophy and enacted them on us, deaf children.
Many audistic school staff and faculty members within the elementary school department reallly loathed me, because of my free-spirited and strong-willed personality not to let them smother me to their ideological beliefs that all deaf students must speak orally. I never gave in to them as my deaf mother fought on my behalf.
Audistic school personnels were very sadistic and abusive as compared to the pragmatic school personnels, who subscribe to workable educational approaches. Anyone abused me that I was not likely to be cooperative and willing to learn anything. Anyone treated me with such respect without being paternalistic and heavy-handed, I returned respects and cooperation. That was very simple approach.
Comprendo, Candy?
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
Chris said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:06 am
Don,
Candy seems to be one of the 10 to 15 gullible minnows under Barry (dr hokum), Mike McConnell (author of “My Plan is Flawlessly – Heh, Heh, Heh – rubbing hands”), Paotie, MZ, Amy. Someone told me that they have a nightly video chat on DeafCity.com discussing how to destroy DBC, but not sure. We should be aware to these mentally unstable abusive deaf people against other deaf people doing productive work for the community.
IT’S REALLY SAD
Richard Roehm said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:07 am
Last wednesday at the audiologist conference. I learned a few things.
There is talk of litigation on blog sites like deafread and deafvideotv because they’re not promoting equal access for oral deaf people.
A new blog aggregator site is coming up.
And I finally got a copy of the CD that has the video “put hand down” vlog clip
by oraldeafgallaudet name at youtube.
Richard
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:31 am
Don, unfortunately, to this day abuses happen everywhere, including in the residential schools. It’s more about the person having the power and control.
I don’t want to minimize the damages from oralism to a deaf child who doesn’t have the necessary communication skills. The deaf child can miss a lot. I’ve seen a lot of oral kids being deprived of language and communication in the old days. To this day, they are still paying the price.
But it seems there is a lot of blame on AGBell system.. like rejection from the neighbor kids, discrimination by the work place, etc. The oralism system has nothing to do with these rejections. Unfortunately we live in a world where being ‘different’ from the norm isn’t well accepted. Even if we use ASL, some of us will still encounter problems… because we are different. African Americans encounter routine discrimination. Overweight people are not well accepted, either.
Even worse this society looks down on people who are handicapped, including the deaf (I know many deaf people don’t consider themselves handicapped. I’m discussing it from the pov of the society). A very high percentage of the disabled people are not well accepted by the society.
To place blame on AGBell and oralism for the societial attitudes toward people who are different.. seem extreme to me. Unfortunately people can be ‘inconsiderate jerks’.
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:40 am
I realize I didn’t make myself clearly. Placing the blame on AGBell for the behavior of the hearing world toward the deaf people seems extreme. I shouldn’t have included the word oralism.. I’m still sleepy.
AGBell Association is not responsible for the behavior of the neighbor kids and these snotty high school classmates. It’s not responsible for the discrimination practiced on us by ignorant, insensitive, and inconsiderate people. AGBell is not responsible for the societal attitudes toward people who are ‘different’. Unfortunately in this society, diablism and audism are prevalent. AGBell Association doesn’t have that much power.
Deaf people miss out a lot due to the inability to use the language of the majority. I guess the best way to avoid this.. is to develop a Deaf utopia where ASL is the main language.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:43 am
Mishka,
What you said is true enough — difference is not tolerated in our society. However, the point is, AGB promoted and encouraged an active rejection of our difference and through their actions, led to many forms of abuse — physical, sexual, psychological, communicative, educational, and social, as I described in the video. If it had not been for AGBell and his organization, we might not have had those abuses, or not in such severe forms or for so long. We as a community might be much more united today without the divisions that were created by AGBell’s policies.
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:49 am
Chris, I haven’t been to that night chat in a long time. By the way people know I cannot be swayed easily, not at all. My writings are based on my personal experiences and beliefs. I guess you don’t know Poatie hates my guts and takes barbs whenever he can. Mike and I don’t agree on many things. Others have also bashed me in the past for being a ‘Deaf Militant’.
Do me a favor and don’t lump us together.
Do give us some credit for having different opinions and beliefs. Just because we think differently doesn’t mean we are out to destroy an organization.
It’s sad to see the lack of tolerance for Deaf free thinkers. Does this organization want all of us to be in the same groupthink where different opinions are not accepted? I sincerely hope not.
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 8:58 am
Don, actually I think it’s our society. Americans are monolingual. Discrimination is rampant against people who use a different language. Look at the protests against the Hispanic language becoming dominant in Southwest region of America and South FL. A man was killed recently because he spoke Hispanic.
So we got it double whammy: we are rejected due to being ‘handicapped’ and discriminated again because we use a different language. It’s very complicated. AGBell does play a role, mostly in the deaf education, medical schools and other programs.
However, if AGBell Association doesn’t exist, we still face these problems because people are not comfortable with people who are different.
Chris said,
August 8, 2008 @ 9:00 am
Mishkazena,
Your statement;
“AGBell Association is not responsible for the behavior of the neighbor kids and these snotty high school classmates.”
It is the usual “anti-deaf” stigma in the society created by AGBell since 1890.
The latest one by AGBell was last January about the Pepsi sign language commercial.
Mishkazena, I thought you are smarter than that, but lately you seem to be brainwashed by your friend, Barry Sewell or are you becoming ill with something?
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Don, sorry
I don’t mean to hijack your post. I just find this very fascinating. Maybe you and I can discuss this further elsewhere.
I do relate to your feeling of frustration and anger. It does suck.
Jean Boutcher said,
August 8, 2008 @ 9:12 am
Don,
Please give us a source to the illustration. Thank you.
Candy,
You are quite right in this regard. Most parents were not aware of the existence of AGBAD. Worse yet, their anger was not directed at teachers; rather, it was directed at their children for failing oralism. Parents equated the failure with stupidity for which they abused them.
A number of abused oral adults were invited to narrate about their hearing parents’ abuse to the graduate students, myself included, in NYC in 1980.
Eugenics was practised in the early A.D. and in B.C. Children who could not speak were dumped in the woods in that they were considered
“not human”; that is: the absence of a sense of hearing = no language.
No language = not human.)
Geroloma Cardano, an Italian mathematician and physician and a persional friend of Leonardo da Vinci who had deaf students, refuted theories about deafness. He said that his deaf son could learn to read and write through a sense of sight!
Gestalt says to look at a person wholly, not at an arm of a person. Most
people lack senso comune.
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 9:20 am
Mishkazena, well said!! *waves hands*
Once again, AGBell and oralism are NOT to be blamed. Practically everyone, including HEARING people, have been abused at least once in their lives ever since before the birth of Christ! And it is still being continued today. Deaf people, whether they use oralism or ASL, are not the only ones who are being abused.
I am going to play a devil’s advocate. You do realize that DBC/Deafhood ARE “abusing” those who are into oralism, cued speech, cochlear implants, AVT, etc., by criticizing, belittling, and rejecting those people. Based on my observations throughout my life, I have noticed that we, ASL users, tend to shun those people away just because they don’t belong. We abuse them by hurting their feelings, making them feel inferior, thus affecting their self esteem which does cause pyschological damages in the future. So really we are no better than AGBell. Remember, when you point a finger at someone or an organization, keep in mind how many fingers point back at you.
MM said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Blaming a ‘system’ for the actions of an individual or sole school is not playing the game. we rad elsewhere where catholic schools abused deaf, but not ALL catholic schools did this. This is a one-sided debate until someone actually clarifies HOW teaching a child to oralise actually abuses them,it’s a perception by a few not the experience of the many…..
Just because you might have had a raw deal in an oral school, doesn’t mean every one did, and every school is the same, there are huge generalizations adding 2 and 2 and making 5 because it suits the ASL arguments. That is what’s lacking in oral and sign debates, balance…. they seem terrified of actually hearing about oral successes…. We know they WANT oralism to fail, what if it isn’t failing ? a lot of parents do not feel that way, in the scheme of things, not everyone will benefit no matter what system is used…. what we actually need is viable PROOF sign is the sole and best option, we don’t really see that…. I think the failures at Gallaudet undermined that argument…
Susan said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:29 am
You can’t use the word “ALL”
drmzz said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:44 am
I found it amusing you had to mention MZ’s posts since she singled out Jack Barr in his infamous AGB video for being representative to DBC and then she shifted places to shed croc tears after watching his abuse videos to cover her tracks. Word of advice from a veteran vlogger, pay attention next time of certain bloggers’ comments here ‘n there. You can see now she’s talking nonsense like “utopia”. Can you see how ridicilious that sound coming from her? It’s like signing deaf people don’t deserve rights and we need to conform. Now that is extreme coming from an inconsiderate jerk.
AGB philosophy is the root of all evil toward deaf people. This influence has history and still rolling. They promote the fact that it is a stigma for being deaf unless corrected with speech and hearing training. This is the mindset of our society that tend to ask deaf people, “Can you read lips?”. We need to reclaim that signing is a given and respectable in itself. ASL can open many roads. There is science in that. Oralism is a pseudo-science.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:45 am
Jean,
If I remember right, the illustration (sorry it got cut off by the software — the other half shows a Deaf kid pleading for mercy from his teacher) was from the book, I think it was titled “Looking Back: A reader on the history of Deaf communities and their sign languages”. R. Fischer & H. Lane (Eds.) — I can check for sure when I get back to work in Sept. if you want.
MM —
If you notice, I was not talking about an oral school alone, or me personally. I was talking about us all, collectively.
And we are not terrified of oral successes. We know they’re out there. But we also know that they are VERY FEW. I would estimate only about 5% are “true” successes, and then maybe about 35 – 45% “partial” successes. The proof that sign is the best option is out there — in looking at Deaf of Deaf — they have consistently demonstrated better academic and literacy skills than Deaf of Hearing (who are usually started with oral education). We are now seeing research come out of the Bi/Bi schools which is also showing that those students who were educated through Bi/Bi from the beginning (preschool to at least Kindergarten and on to graduation) show higher academic and literacy skills than those who entered a signing school later (and were therefore delayed in their academic and linguistic development). The problem is that not enough schools employ Bi/Bi methodology, and some of the ones (not necessarily talking “Bi/Bi schools” here) that claim to use ASL do not truly support ASL development in their students or usage by their teachers. So we must be careful in how we read and interpret the data.
Susan —
Yes, I CAN use the word “ALL”, because ALL of us, directly or indirectly, subtly or overtly, have experienced some or a lot of the effects of oralism and therefore have been on the receiving end of abuse by the Oralist system, of which AGBell is a large part.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:53 am
DRMZZ –
I had to mention MZ’s posts because I made pretty much the same comment as in the video on her site, but she wouldn’t let it through because she felt it was “too political” and not to the point of what she was trying to say. It is her blog and her decision to do with it what she wants. So she inspired me to go ahead and make the video. Probably better this way — more people will see it than buried in the comments of her blog.
I did catch her “utopia” comment. Decided to leave it so people will see her mindset. Thanks for pointing it out, though. You’re right in your points — ASL should be a “given” and viewed as equal to English and other spoken languages and Oralism is definitely a pseudo-science.
drmzz said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:56 am
Dr. DonG, OIC, got it. Off to Del Valle for camping.
Anon said,
August 8, 2008 @ 11:11 am
Don,
Miishkazena said, “Maybe you and I can discuss this further elsewhere.”
Please don’t fall into that trick! She might copy all of your comments and give it to DBC (Deaf Barry Coalition) to further the effort to discredit you as a V/Blogger.
Just don’t trust these people, Barry(dr hukom), Amy C. E., MZ, Mike, (The Piano Clown), Potheadie and their little gullible minnows like Candy, White Ghost, Seek Geo….
Misha said,
August 8, 2008 @ 11:53 am
DonG,
To be honest with you, I don’t think AGBell should be fully blamed for those such abuses BUT perhaps partially blamed. Keep in the mind that not all parents were aware of AGBell. My parents weren’t, either.
But I believe the blame placed on “communication barrier” is what that really happened. Like I stated in my blog about deaf residential schools whether they’re oral or pure ASL, the kids did receive the abuses due to lack of communication and comprehension between the hearing staff and deaf students.
Misha
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
Anon –
I THINK MZ is trying to understand, but honestly, I can’t say for sure. But for sure, most of the people you named (with a couple of exceptions in my personal opinion) are not to be trusted, especially the ringmaster of their little circus. If contacted, I will be very careful with anything I say, you can be sure of that!
Karen Mayes said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
*smiling*
Well, the way I see it, it is your perspective. To be honest, I had a happy childhood at CID in St. Louis, the teachers were caring, etc. I even kept in touch with a speech teacher for years after I left CID (no I no longer keep in touch with her… I went on my merry way, so to speak…) Sure, my speech is not great, but I am OK with it. It is how comfortable I feel in my skin, finding the balance in my life, dealing with the punches that life throws at me, etc. Some people may not feel comfortable in their skins, so they might find salvation in Deafhood, DBC, AGBell, you name it, to try to fit themselves to the philosophies. Okay.
Sure, I roll my eyes at your exclaims, and I do disagree… no questions about it. I smile at a few commenters who try to lump a few of us together, etc. It shows they feel threatened by us. I know that on the blogs, the words are limiting and leave a wide room for several translations (or mistranslations, for that matter, seeing the labellings, fingerpointing, taking words out of context, etc., all because of not fully understanding on the sides.) I have no problems with Candy, Paotie, Mike McConnell, etc., because they represent the moderates mostly. I have two kids with different hearing losses, different learning styles, etc. So I try to find balance in the differing opinions. I know for sure that some of you who read this comment would go thinking, geez, she is brainwashed, colonized, blah blah. Fine, have it your way, if it makes you feel better ;o)
Anyway, interesting POV, Dr.Don.
Karen Mayes said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:35 pm
Psst… I have never heard of DeafCity.com until Chris mentioned it. ;o)
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:40 pm
DrDonG
You know what? Reading your and the others’ replies to Candy and MZ’s posts made me realize you are pathetic and definitely a deaf militant. People like you has split the deaf community into various groups, and we are no longer united as whole.
How sad.
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
LOL @ Karen Mayes! Exactly!
deafchipmunk said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
Hi Don,
I agree with you about communication abuse that leads to physcial, spiritual, emotional and mental abuse. The powerless of communication is the powerless of life. In my view, AGBell promotes that concept; therefore, it is accountability for having so many Deaf children being victims of all kinds of abuse.
In British Columbia, the judge recognized that communication was important part of Deaf children’s security and safety. Without communication right, they were victims. Judge recommends that all Deaf babies and children should learn ASL to protect them from any form of abuses. ASL empowers Deaf children to increase their awareness of rights. Without ASL, they would never understand their rights that is what AGBell has promoted for years. AGBell is the root of unimaginable problems. AGBell should face the justice and appropriate consequence for their unacceptable behaviours toward Deaf babies, children and their parents for centuries.
Deafchip
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Karen,
If you feel comfortable without any labels, fine. I don’t think of Deafhood as any sort of “salvation” — it is simply a framework that helps me to understand what has been going on in our world.
I am glad you’re at least listening to other POVs.
BTW, I never heard of DeafCity.com until recently myself. If it’s true, it would explain a lot. Sad, pathetic people who only want to destroy instead of building up our community and working towards getting us all moving forward.
Margaret,
I guess our perspectives of who is “militant” is going to differ. I could say that people like Barry, Paotie, McConnell are “militants” who think Deaf people should only be listening and talking and fitting oh-so-nicely into the Hearing world, meek and quiet….
See some of my previous vlogs on this topic:
“Who are you calling a Militant?”
“Why we should be proud to be called ‘Militants’
“Why are we the only ones called ‘Militant?‘
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
I do agree that Deafhood serves as a salvation. See below:
Definitions of salvation on the Web:
* redemption: (theology) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil
* a means of preserving from harm or unpleasantness; “tourism was their economic salvation”; “they turned to individualism as their salvation”
* the state of being saved or preserved from harm
* saving someone or something from harm or from an unpleasant situation; “the salvation of his party was the president’s major concern”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* In theology, salvation can mean three related things:* being saved from something, such as suffering or the punishment of sin – also called deliverance;* being saved for something, such as an afterlife or participating in the Reign of God – also called redemption* social liberation and healing …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation
It’s obvious that Deafhood considers AGBell, oralism, cochlear implants, AVT, cued speech, and the like as evil or harmful. By adopting this attitude, Deafhood has destroyed its mission and become militant.
deafchipmunk said,
August 8, 2008 @ 1:18 pm
I forgot to add that ASL is a language that empowers Deaf children to increase their awareness of their rights and their communication needs without any form of restriction.
Denying Deaf children a language is a form of child abuse. Language increases Deaf children’s awareness of their rights and their security/safety.
Without language (ASL, BSL, LSQ) many Deaf children will never feel security everywhere.
AGBell and its school of minnows should be held accountability for causing so many Deaf children so many unhealthy problems. I mean horrible and inhuman problems that SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Deafchip
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
When one becomes militant, the others consider this individual very mean and narrow minded.
Deafhood is accepting who you are, the fact you are deaf, your right to be damn proud of it, and the deaf community working together as whole. That is what I understand what Deafhood should be about, but instead, people associated with Deafhood has turned militant by blaming AGBell for practically EVERYTHING and destroying everything in your path which can result in sad consequences. I feel Deafhood has abused its power and has failed to live up to its expectations. Deafhood, in my opinion, is definitely falling apart because the deaf community is shattered by two Deafhood groups — one who is understanding, sympathetic, and respectful and another who are militants. No wonder AGBell is laughing at us because we can’t compromise and work together.
Chris said,
August 8, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
To Margaret and other little minnows,
You all are just a tiny bit of the minority trying to discredit DBC and its supporters. The words gets around that there are not more than 10 to 15 people collaborating together trying to make a lot of noise and these people are hurting not only themselves with their credibility, but also confusing thousands of parents of deaf babies.
Have you asked yourself why these people, Barry-MZ-Amy-Mike-Paotie haven’t denied if they have been collaborating as a group to discredit DBC yet? These are powered-driven egomaniacs that desperately needs attention, to be idolized by people…like yourself, The Little Minnows.
These people just all talk, they have no constructive “movement” agenda. Haven’t you realize that yet?
That’s why I will defend DBC’s goal to help parents to be educated everything about how a deaf child can reach its full potential with language and education.
observer said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
Margaret, hon, you don’t have to be militant for others to consider you mean or narrow-minded. Just sayin’.
Margaret said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
Chris
I fully support DBC; however, Deafhood needs to separate itself from DBC because Deafhood is murking DBC’s mission to help deaf and hard of hearing infants and young children realize our American Sign Language (ASL). I copied a paragraph from the DBC web site which is as follows:
“DBC promotes the early acquisition of American Sign Language for all Deaf Babies and Children. DBC promotes the acquisition of English as a second language. Bilingualism promotes the respect of both ASL and English as two separate languages; both having extreme value to cognitive and literacy development. DBC recognizes amplification, speech and listening training as supplementary tools used alongside American Sign Language if the child shows evidence that these techniques will be beneficial and not impact social and emotional development.”
The above appears to me that DBC is being neutral but strongly recommends that ASL be incorporated with other communication methods because it is our primary language. DBC is WILLING to work with parents, guardians, audiologists, teachers, doctors, surgeons, etc. What IS Deafhood’s mission?? To me, what Deafhood is trying to do is overthrow AGBell, cued speech, oralism, cochlear implants, AVT, as well as blaming AGBell for all the abuses we suffered while growing up. DBC and Deafhood are in conflict with each other in regard to their missions. That is why I strongly believe Deafhood should disassociate itself from DBC and let DBC work with deaf and hard of hearing infants and young children. Deafhood is supposed to educate the deaf community that there is nothing wrong being deaf, and we should be proud of ourselves. Deafhood is about each of YOU as a deaf individual, right?
A Deaf Pundit said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:29 pm
I think it has to be pointed out that Deafhood is a PERSONAL journey. Not a community one. DBC has made it clear that they are trying to force Deafhood into becoming a community journey. MZ, Amy and all of us oppose that.
MZ and Amy are also NOTHING like McConnell and Paotie. I know those two on a personal level, and I consider them to be my dear friends… they are not audists, and that they have the Deaf Community’s best interest at heart, and that DBC does not. DBC’s only interested in itself, and promoting Deafhood, period. It is not interested in healing the Deaf Community’s wounds. And I will testify under oath about that if I have to.
~ Deaf Pundit
Misha said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:41 pm
Chris,
You misheard about the chat room planning on destroying DBC. Believe me. I can’t believe you actually believe someone about that. NOBODY EVER TRIES TO DESTROY DBC! NOBODY! Not even MZ, Amy nor others.
We all support DBC but need more details on their future plans, that’s all we ask for.
As for the chat room, we talk in general such as our lives, jobs, children, etc. what we have our minds on or play the games, etc. We didn’t talk much about DBC at all. Just very little. Nothing else. I cannot believe you really have the balls to insult chatters since I have no idea who the hell you are. You shouldn’t have taken someone else’s story. You don’t know the chatters at all. NONE AT ALL!!!!! Read before you jump your conclusions.
DonG, I’m throughly disgusted the way you treated other people like the lepers. I don’t think it is justly fair to treat us equally as long as we have the healthy good discussions. Everyone needs to come in with the open minds and eyes. Obviously half of them do…half others don’t. I’m sorry to say that.
Misha
Misha said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:42 pm
DonG,
I forgot to add one more thing….you allow others to attack the comments by calling them “little minnows”. Is that respectful? No…I’ve already lost Chris’ respect after all he kept calling the people names.
Misha
Candy said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
LOL
Thanks for the laughs guys. Wow. First off, let me say this: I have tried to show respect to everyone and their opinions even if I didn’t agree with it. I have not called anyone names or put anyone down. I thought we were just sharing POVs here. But, no, there are a few people here who started this name calling and you wonder where it all started? ah there you go. The evidence is right here in this blog post and that was what I was talking about all along.
Growing up in a deaf culture, I have never seen anyone so bitter and angry at an organization as some of you here are (towards AGB.)
It tells me some of your inner core (your being or your soul) is black. There is so much darkness and bitterness which I really do not want any part of. I live my life knowing that today could be my last day and I try to live my life the best I can without any baggage. You only live once so, why not make the best of it and live it well.
Some of the bloggers/vloggers that were trashed in this blog has not commented here, yet, you still trash them. Why? because they have different views? It sure says a lot about you (you know who you are.)
I have never heard of that deaf chat site either myself. I guess there are some paranoid people here too. *shrugs*
DonG, I hope you see what is really going on here and see that it was never I or others that were trashed that started this division. Division happens when one tries to oppress the others POV. We’re all never going to agree on one thing, but, we sure can learn to respect other’s opinion and it is pretty obvious here that some of your commenters do not want to respect other’s differing opinion. NO one has to agree.
Have a great weekend you all. Remember….you only live once. Live today and live it well.
Ciao~
Banjo said,
August 8, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
Hello Chris, what you said about DeafCity is false. We do not have a meeting on a daily basis on how to destroy DBC. That’s a ridiculous rumour, and I wonder why anyone would bother saying that about DeafCity.
This is the first time I heard of this so-called rumour. In fact, there are hardly any political debates within the chatroom. People go there to have a good time.
Hope this clear DeafCity’s name.
Karen Mayes said,
August 8, 2008 @ 3:17 pm
Wow, I am sorry to see your anger, Chris. Remember it is all perspectives… we are neitther right nor wrong. You don’t have to attack at all… you could just ignore us. Calling us names is not helping, since you don’t know any of us except by the way of comments.
Peace out.
D said,
August 8, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
DrDonG,
Ok, then what is the solution or at least some possible constructive strategies that we can consider to “stop this abuse?”
Quite frankly, I’m not too convinced of the “abuse” rhetoric because it can appear to be too generalizing to use “all” and single out AGBell for their historical actions. Granted, AGBell contributed to a lot of abuse in the deaf community on many levels. But, my larger point is this: There is no point to discuss abuse nor to comprehend the levels of abuse that you are addressing without providing some sort of possible solution on the table. This would help me (and maybe other readers) to understand the “root” of these abuses that you are addressing.
Just my 2 cents.
D
John Mans said,
August 8, 2008 @ 3:58 pm
To a few commenter..
Why, do you consider Deaf people, who are militant when they join the DBC? What about AGBell’s people? Do AGBELL’s people, who are not militant when they promote ” hear and talk” and oppress ASL? Why, you only use your beautiful finger point at Deaf people and never use your beautiful finger point to AGBEll’s people, who are militant too..
One question for true militant which one belong to #1 or # 2
1) Deaf people promote ASL language for Deaf baby.
2) AGBell’s people promote ” Hear and talk” for Deaf baby.
Which one would be a great benefit to Deaf baby?
Which one would be a great damage to Deaf Baby?
Now, you have to think harder about who is militant?
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
Seriously do you think neighbor kids have heard of AGBell Association? I am sure almost everybody in my block can recognize AGBell as the inventor of the phone system, not aware of his role as the promoter of the oralism method.
I don’t know what I did wrong with the word Deaf Utopia as that’ was what I learned from Deaf Studies/Deaf History from a man about a century gao who wanted to build a deaf state. When I mentioned that, I mean a place where ASL is used everywhere. that was the dream of Miller when he and a group of Deaf people were thinking of setting up a Deaf town in S.D. That way there would be no communication abuse. Please don’t read into my words as a conspiracy against you. Some people actually want to understand more about this point of view.
Mike, as a graduate student in counseling, you committed the cardinal sin. You assumed you know how other people feel. I do not appreciate you twising my words to fit your angry agenda as you have no idea how I feel. Unlike you, I am not looking for a fight.
Chris, sharing the truth is an attempt to discredit DBC? That’s interesting. How can truth hurt an organization? Only if it doesn’t want to be transparent. I thank DBC for acknowledging that Deafhood is practiced there.
But I’m sensing a lot of hostility here. I guess the Deafhood people don’t like freethinkers who want to learn more. Alright. Hostility isn’t my bag since life is too short to be hostile. Ciao.
Joseph Pietro Riolo said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
I see that people continue to vilify Dr. Alexander Graham Bell. Perhaps, they should start to vilify Aristotle who stated that those who were born deaf were not capable of reason. After all, Aristotle’s philosophy influenced the whole world for two thousand years.
Dr. Bell is not all that bad person. He even recognized that the signing system of De l’Epee is a distinct language, unlike many people in his time.
I will repeat some points that are made by several commentators. It is absurd to extend the word of abuse to many situations that were described in the vlog. It is a classic example of misusing, or shall I say abusing, the word of abuse.
The abuse is not limited to oral schools but also occurs in the deaf residential schools where signing is allowed. Moreover, the Deaf culture does not completely denounce the Deaf abusers especially if they come from long generations of Deaf people. That is cronyism, nepotism or any related words. When the Deaf or deaf kids were abused by the Deaf members of the Deaf culture, they did not come forward for one main reason: These victims did not want to be doubly stigmatized. Once, they were stigmatized by the hearing world. They did not want to be stigmatized for the second time by the Deaf culture if they came forward and identify the Deaf abusers. Also, they knew that they would not be believed by the members of the Deaf culture especially if the abusers were well liked by the Deaf culture.
Abuse knows no boundary. It completely disregards the hearing status of the abusers. If there is anything that we should blame on for abuse, it is called free will. Oralism has nothing to do with it. Signism has nothing to do with it. Combined methods have nothing to do with it. We are cursed, or blessed, with free will.
I find it a little ironic that the illustration is used as an introduction to the vlog. (The illustration can be seen in full by going to http://www.deafhooddiscourses.com/2008/OralistPunishment.jpg .) Let’s learn a little about Friedrich Moritz Hill. According to Speechreading by Harriet Kaplan, Scott J. Bally and Carol Garretson (published by Gallaudet University Press in 1987, ISBN: 0930323327 and/or 9780930323325): “Many of the principles of oral deaf education as it is used today can be traced to Friedrich Hill. Despite his oral philosophy, he did not forbid the use of signing in the classroom.” (Page x) In other words, Mr. Hill is not a pure oralist. It does not make any sense to use one of his illustrations to argue against pure oralism.
Other thing about Mr. Hill is that he was against the dehumanization of the deaf people. According to Crying Hands: Eugenics and Deaf People in Nazi Germany by Horst Biesold and Henry Friedlander (published by Gallaudet University Press in 1999, ISBN: 1563680777 and/or 9781563680779): “In 1861, a prominent teacher of deaf pupils, Friedrich Hill, noted a growing tendency among German physicians to speculate on hereditary biology. Hill saw this as a threat to deaf people, whose basic human rights could be violated without justification.” (Page 13) Again, to use one of his illustrations to talk about abuse does not recognize his support of the deaf people against eugenics. One could even say that he was against the abuse of the deaf people, contrary to the topic of the vlog.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Joseph Pietro Riolo said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
Addendum: The quotations in my previous comment can be found through Google’s Book Search.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
A Deaf Pundit said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
Does Deafhood mean attacking AG Bell? Does Deafhood mean labeling people who disagree with you as deficit thinkers? Does Deafhood mean labeling people who disagree with you as audist, or colonalized?
Please. Don’t lecture me about Deafhood. I saw enough of that when I was inside the core of DBC.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
Ok…. a lot of activity happening here while I was out doing some errands….
Margaret & Deaf Pundit:
Deafhood is a personal journey. Deafhood is about understanding ourselves and about understanding where we are as Deaf people and where we have come from. Deafhood is about understanding that Deaf people are “People of the Eye” — visually oriented, and therefore gravitate towards sign language (yes, there are some of you who resist doing so, and that is part of your own personal journeys, but in general, most of us DO prefer the ease and comfort of sign language to the stress of trying to lipread and make ourselves understood vocally and trying to blend in as “Hearing people”).
As such, there really is no conflict between Deafhood and DBC. DBC promotes sign language as most visually appropriate for Deaf babies, Deafhood says the same thing. DBC wants Deaf babies to have access to sign language, Deafhood has an explanation for why Deaf babies have not, to this day for over 100 years. “Deafhood” does not want to overthrow anything — there is not even any entity that one could point to as being “Deafhood”. It is those of us who have come to understand the problems in our Deaf society as emanating from oralism that are calling for an “overthrow” (if you want to call it that) of AGB. Many of us have said similar things for many many years, long before Paddy Ladd and “Deafhood” was even a twinkle in anybody’s eye. Paddy only put a name to what all of us have had, to one degree or another while living our lives as Deaf people. If you recall, DBC did not call for any “overthrow” of AGBell — they only said “Tear Down This Wall!”. That’s not an overthrow, that’s just calling for AGBell to become more “transparent” and to stop putting up roadblocks to our Deaf (and Deaf babies’) lives.
DBC is interested in supporting the linguistic and academic growth of Deaf babies, despite anything else you might think.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
Misha, who did I treat like a leper? I have treated you all fairly and with as much respect as I can. If you are referring to Barry, then yes, you’re right. I have stated my reasons why he is not good for our community — he has demonstrated a consistent pattern of destruction of any group he comes into contact with. I believe he should be treated as a leper.
As for name-calling, “minnow” is nothing. Name calling is happening on both sides of the issue. Recall “Militant”, “Deafhood Priests”, “Deaf Cults”?
D –
Ok, that is a good question regarding solutions. I put forth three ideas in my previous vlogs (cited below) that I think would be a good start toward stopping the abuse.
Legislative Agenda #1 (Easiest)
Legislative Agenda #2 (Harder)
Legislative Agenda #3 (Hardest)
MZ –
Of course neighbor kids have never heard of AGBell. Doesn’t mean that they don’t learn the attitudes from their parents, who learned it from their parents, etc. Children may never have heard of the KKK but that doesn’t mean that they don’t learn racism or anti-semitism from their parents, who learned it from their parents….
As for “Deaf Utopia”, it was the tone that was used. Why not use “Deaf Society” or “Deaf Township” or something. People use the word “utopia” often to belittle others’ ideas when they try to present possibilities for how their or others’ lives can be better.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
Joseph P.R. –
Bell may have recognized Epee’s signs as a language, but he also vociferously emphasized that “the language of signs” could never be the equal of speech. And let us not forget his infamous “Memoir”. And, I was just reading about the book “The Telephone Gambit” which gives some evidence for how Bell seems to have STOLEN the design for the telephone from Elisha Gray (see the picture in the link). The more I learn about Bell the less respect I have for him as a man. We Deaf should not be revering his name in any way.
As for Hill, many of the Oralists of his time were not “pure” oralists — why? Because they would have failed miserably if they did so. They realized that Deaf people need sign language in order to understand what was being asked of them (to produce speech). But, many of them did not disclose this fact, which shows once again that Oralism is a fraudulent process.
silentredwolf said,
August 8, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
Hello Don, I have notice that you sign abuse several times and your sign is incorrect, if physical abuse then you sign correct, if verbal, or unfair without physical then you should sign (wrong use or wrong communication or wrong information) more common sense, any way I agree with you. As you know I do sign pure ASL and also speak very well, I do not consider myserlf oraliism, my Deaf residental school do have speech class only those students who able to speak, what speech teacher do, she/he sign and explain how to use correction sound by using tongue, thing like that that make student understand without abuse like AGB’s method. My old school don’t follow AGB’ system.
Oh do you know Brigham Young University President have deaf daughter that speak oral, no sign language. Not one person understand her except her famly, her family know her deaf talk. They said her speech are perfect. To her family yes to public who never meet deaf person or a little have no idea what she said cuz she speak awfully. I don’t know how smart she is. Anyway. I will make video and put in deafvideo.tv soon to explain my experience with speech. keep up with your vlog and blogs. Good day, Dr. Don.
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
Well, it wasn’t my intention at all. Why that word? The term popped up in my mind from the literature I read. in Deaf History. That story wasn’t offensive, nor belittling… a very interesting tidbit. I suggest you read that story.
Think how the hearing parents feel when they read this post (believe me, they do when they google on DBC and Deafhood) and encounter so much bitterness and anger. Is that what they want for their Deaf babies and Children? You decide.
By the way, sure enough I was attacked here , as I predicted in your last post. So were other people. It shows the diversity of Deaf people are NOT accepted here, which contradicts the true meaning of Deafhood: all Deaf peoplare are accepted, including oral and c.i. users. For sure, free thinkers who ask questions are not welcome here.
Anyway, hostility and bitterness aren’t my style. I welcome all kinds of Deaf people. Adios.
DrDonG said,
August 8, 2008 @ 5:28 pm
Mishka –
Deaf people accept diversity. But we do not accept when our language and values are attacked, just as other cultures do not accept when people attack their values or languages. Attacking DBC, which represents our values of supporting visual access to language through natural sign languages, becomes translated as an attack on our culture, language and values. And it does not help when some people have made insulting and belittling comments towards us and our ways. We accept diversity within our ranks, but to be accepted, one has to show acceptance of our values as well. It’s the same for any culture. As a Jewish person, I do eat bacon (love the stuff more than I should…), but if I were to stand up and proclaim “I LOVE JESUS AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR AND ALL THE REST OF YOU NEED TO ACCEPT JESUS IN YOUR LIVES TOO!”, you can bet that I would no longer be accepted as Jewish or accepted within the community of Jews…. (except for the Jews for Jesus, but that’s another story altogether…)
Chris said,
August 8, 2008 @ 5:32 pm
Mishkazena,
You said;
“Chris, sharing the truth is an attempt to discredit DBC?”
Is it the truth when you said that the DBC core leaders are cult?
DBC core leaders are not cult!
Mishkazena, you need to stop being a manipulator with words to the Deaf community.
Now, you owe DBC an apology.
Mishkazena said,
August 8, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
Asking for truth is considered ‘attacking’? Okayyy….
You forgot one thing:
We all are Deaf. We have our Deaf Culture, we embrace ASL and our Deafhood. Yet we have our own independent thoughts and beliefs.
As long as they all conform to one groupthink, then they are all accepted
You just proved that your version of Deafhood doesn’t accept diversity among Deaf People. .
Gotcha.
Chris said,
August 8, 2008 @ 7:18 pm
Mishkazena,
I did not say anything about Deafhood.
Why did you say that?
There is no “Gotcha”
It is your manipulative style to conceive people’s mind.
Jean Boutcher said,
August 8, 2008 @ 10:18 pm
Don,
In responce to your comment #63 in regard to an attack on language, I have a true story about American dealers who sold Ford cars in France. In their arrogance, they advertized: “LE CAR” instead of ‘LA VOITURE” all over in France. When seeing that ad, French people hit the ceiling. The Minister of Culture was equally angered and fining the American dealers for bastarising the French terms. Besides the fine, the Cultural Minister warned that the dealers must immediately leave France should they once again bastardise the French langauge.
When in Rome, do what Romans do!
Richard Roehm said,
August 9, 2008 @ 2:51 am
DEAF DOOMSDAY CLOCK – http://www.deafadvocacy.org/blog/2008/08/deaf-doomsday-clock.html
Most of us already know what the doomsday clock means. For those who havent heard of it should consult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock for more information.
How about one for the deaf world? Deafness wipe out begins at midnight. The handle position on the clock shows how close we are to effecting a wipe out of the deafness condition globally.
As of today, the deaf doomsday clock is set at 4 minutes. What factors are used in determining the position of the handle on the clock?
MEDICAL OCCURRENCE – This factor relates to babies developing into deaf people. With the high incidence of Rubella outbreaks and the high occurrence of birth defects in the past, creating a higher population of deaf people back then, had pushed the clock back. Now with medical and ototoxic knowledge, vaccinations against rubella, genetic counseling, and preventive prenatal activities, is pushing the handle closer to midnight.
TECHNOLOGY – With the advent of technology that mitigates deafness such as cochlear implants, it pushes the handle toward midnight. When the Food Drug Administration opened investigation into one of the makers of the cochlear implants, it pushed the handle back a little bit just as bacterial meningitis would do. Stem cells entering the clinical trials phase could push the handle far closer to midnight. Ipods and the growing hearing loss epidemic from noise related causes are pushing the handle backwards.
ATTITUDES TO THOSE WITHIN THE DEAF COMMUNITY – Deaf community’s attitudes toward to those within their community is a critical factor. Things that’ll push the handle closer to midnight are actions like getting Jane K. Fernandes ousted from Gallaudet University. Deafhood cult hijacking many aspects of deaf community and their organizations would push the handle closer to midnight because deafhood has so far been a constant source of internal instability and scourge since the past decades. Only open armed leadership from people like Fred Schreiber would do a lot to push the handle back. Another brilliant example that pushes the handle closer to midnight would be deaf websites, particularly Deafread.com and Deafvideo.tv, end up banning deaf leaders for various, yet stupid, reasons.
ATTITUDES TO THOSE OUTSIDE THE DEAF COMMUNITY – Coexistence is a critical factor in determining the handle position on the clock. The deaf community’s relationship with the hearing counterparts plays a strong role. If there is peaceful non-confrontational coexistence between deaf and hearing people, the handle will be pushed back. Things such as excluding hearing people from participating in social events like in the case whereas sign language students are being ignored by the deaf community like at The Block At Orange would push the handle closer to midnight. If we show the good side of being deaf to the world, then people will want to keep us in existence. However if the media continues to report the deaf community in some sort of a war with the hearing community through various forms of litigations and actions, the hearing people will be pushed to mitigating the deafness occurrence and the handle will be pushed closer to midnight.
So it’s all up to you, the deaf community, to determine your fate, your future, and the handle position on the deaf doomsday clock.
Richard Roehm
MM said,
August 9, 2008 @ 2:57 am
I agree with deaf pundit in that Deafhood has made more problems for the deaf than they need right now. I also think personally the DBC latched on to deafhood hoping it would drag the DBC along with that bandwagon, because obviously they do NOT see that the deafhood thing is a personal event, but an ideology to preserve the ‘purity’ of deaf signing culture, thus links with extremes are being seen. The DBC hopes to pick up members by suggesting deafhood is all about signing deaf and against oralism, so the DBC is the ‘face’ of deahood..
This is why I opposed deafhood for being false and duplistic, in pronouncing a deaf unity, whilst pushing division via mode and decibel, definitions of deafhood as early as the first 10 pages clearly drew up the lines. I’ll take this opportunity a a Brit to apologize for Mr Ladd and deafhood, we all have our eccentrics.
Joseph Pietro Riolo said,
August 9, 2008 @ 5:54 am
It is fine with me that you can express your opinions about Dr. Alexander Graham Bell and Mr. Friedrich Mortiz Hill. It is the freedom of expression and I am for it. But, I do notice that you continue to antagonize them by looking for faults in them without balancing them out with the positive things that they did or putting them in the proper context. Candy’s point about inner core being dark (or black, to use her word) seems to be on the spot.
As for Dr. Bell doing improper thing with the patent, the issue is far from settled. There is even the third person that some historians claim to be the true inventor of telephone. The third person is Antonio Meucci. Now, we have three individuals who were claimed to be the true inventor of telephone. It goes without saying that those who hate Dr. Bell, have prejudices against him or continue to find faults in him would have no hesitation not to count him among the company of inventors of telephone.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
LS said,
August 9, 2008 @ 7:09 am
Occasionally I enjoy watch your vlogs, there are some disagreements
in my opinion but that is not point here. I suggest you to check
DVTV: Dr. Hocokan vlog #19:
comments #361, 362, 366 and 367. A Deaf Indian, Wakinyan
told his POV on IDC and Barry summed up his explanation of corrupted
IDC. Hmm interesting.
Mishkazena said,
August 9, 2008 @ 8:32 am
Chris, excuse me? I would appreciate it if you don’t jump into conclusions. That was my response to Don
If you want to know, you can read my comments in my blog. I’ve stated my position about the INNER core DBC team: We ALL must have a very strong groupthink where diversity of thoughts are not allowed. Well, this is America, the land of the diversity. To this day, I still see bashing on Deaf freethinkers, like you just did several times, Chris, belittling and mocking.. because we have questions as concerned stakeholders and feel we are entitled to hear the truth. Don and another person interpreted my word uptopia as beliiltling when it was never my intention. I’ve already explained the historical story where that term Deaf Uptopia was used. I wasn’t aware the term was used to belittle Deaf people.
We are still Deaf, we are still embrace ASL and our own Deafhood. Yet we are met with hostility because our Deafhood are not within the only ONE groupthink. That’s not the true definition of Deafhood. That is a very bad sign if an organization goes after free thinkers, oppressing and trying to silence them by attacks instead of engaging in a healthy discourse. Everybody is already talking about the heavy-handed approach DBC people are using and they don’t like what they see. Neither do I. I guess we took a big step back in Deaf Democracy and Deaf Unity, eh?
What is even worse… The parents of deaf kids are reading the comments and the post, not just here, but also elsewhere on the Internet. And they go.. hmm, DBC people are behaving like this to other Deaf people? The DH people wants all Deaf people to share ONE groupthink? The independent Deaf people are like deficit thinkers and colonialists.? How do you think they will feel?
You can bet AGBell Association is already aware of the shotgun incident of Jack Barr. He made a very big mistake and he apologized, which is commendable of him. However AGBell people do read our blogs and vlogs.
It’s not us the independent Deaf people, but the 95% stalkholders, the hearing parents of deaf babies/children, that DBC needs to be concerned. They are not stupid. AGBell people will show them the copies of selected blogs and comments.. and see: Do you want your Deaf kid to go there.. with all the negativity and hatred? Where Deaf people are attacked viciously because they have questions, asking for transparency, and finally telling the truth? Like it’s very wrong to tell the truth?
What do you think their answer would be? You decide.
DrDonG said,
August 9, 2008 @ 9:00 am
LS,
Thank you for bringing my attention to this thread.
Interesting story, but notice that Wakinyan made his comment at Barry’s request. I’d want to see someone who is not affiliated with Barry who is involved in IDC give their perspective.
I really can’t comment further on any of this IDC – related business — I am not Indian, nor do I attend the IDC events, so I know nothing about any of this on a firsthand basis.
It is one thing for those of us non-Indians to respect Indian culture, and even to enjoy their ceremonies, which can be beautiful and symbolic, but it is quite another for non-Indians to get involved in their affairs. I have several Indian friends, but I would never think of being involved in their activities as anything other than an observer.
Yet, Barry, who is not Indian, definitely has gotten involved at more than the observer level. To me, this is just wrong, and I know that many of the Indians feel the same way. I wish they would comment on this, but it is apparently their way not to confront people who have done things wrong against them, but instead, to just walk away from them and have nothing to do with that person until that person shows understanding of how they have hurt the other.
DrDonG said,
August 9, 2008 @ 10:59 am
Joseph P.R. –
You can think what you want about me, but you know, and I know you know, as a Deaf academic, that Oralism as a method and philosophy has been a vast failure for an extremely large majority of Deaf children and adults due to the fact that it forces Deaf people to learn, think and communicate through their weakest sense: hearing.
I am not trying to antagonize — I am only trying to wake people up to the depredations of Oralism and its main proponent: the AGBell Association. If this means I have to “shock” people into waking up, I will do so. If you want to interpret this as “antagonism”, nothing I can do to stop you there.
BTW, did you look at that diagram in that link? It shows a diagram of the phone’s workings that looks almost exactly like the diagram that Elisha Gray submitted to the Patent Office — about 3 weeks earlier! Sure looks like outright plagiarism to me!
drhocokan said,
August 9, 2008 @ 1:29 pm
Dr DonG,
You have a incorrect version. Waki commented on this matter on my vlog #20 on his own, without my request. When I saw it I asked him to post his comment in vlog #19. You can go and look at the timeframe in vlog #20 and see that he posted there before I asked him to post in #19.
(Comment deleted due to insults toward my character)
Regards.
Dean said,
August 9, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
Mishkazena,
You Says:
“By the way, sure enough I was attacked here, as I predicted in your last post. So were other people. It shows the diversity of Deaf people are NOT accepted here, which contradicts the true meaning of Deafhood: all Deaf people are accepted, including oral and c.i. users. For sure, free thinkers who ask questions are not welcome here.”
Predictably, your perception that you were going to be attacked makes it come true. The trick is to always give everyone a benefit of doubt no matter what has evolved beforehand. One can always grow and change a bit by bit every day and become a better person, at least gaining in wisdom (that’s education). In short, always be nice to all and expecting kindness in return. Then you shall receive it.
Diversity was, is, and will always be with us all, no matter what you say about it. It’s a matter of perception.
Why would you say that all Deaf people are not accepted here? As if you can dictate how ALL people should fit your mold? It might be helpful if you do not let it get under your skin whenever there are comments that are a bit beyond your sense of decency. Just let it brew a bit longer and not be quick to trigger that you may later regret.
To be honest with you, I wouldn’t feel comfortable being among a large group oral and CI users who does not communicate well in ASL, but I would still be polite should I be approached by them. I would be glad to help if asked. I would never want to offend their feelings if I can help it. In fact, I do accept their rights to enjoy life — with or without oralism and with or without ASL. They are free to choose their own path. I reckon I am also free to associate with whichever group I feel comfortable during my social and family hours.
You need to be careful here about your meaning of acceptance.
Who says that free thinkers are not welcome here? Like Dr. DonG has just hinted, your tone is very important key to being welcome. You probably want to work on your approach. In my book everyone is a free thinker.
I noticed that you still posted several more comments after you apologized: “I don’t mean to hijack your post.” (#22) I also noticed that you have been posting your numerous comments in each of vlogs that are related to ASL, DBC, Deafhood, and other issues. Why would you want to do that? It can be very tiresome for us readers listening to your same comments over and over again and again.
Allow me to mention that I am aware you are with NAD’s Think Tank program that really needs to be more transparent to parents of deaf children seeking our help. I am rather concerned that you have not compromised your time with the NAD office. Your Think Tank website really needs to undergo a wholesale change to the point where it would be a breeze for parents of deaf children to access all kinds of information.
Dean
MM said,
August 10, 2008 @ 2:04 am
We are all being abused via deafhood…..
DrDonG said,
August 10, 2008 @ 5:29 am
Oh, MM…. <8-0
If you’re going to make such a comment, at least back it up with some reasons why you think so…
Chris said,
August 10, 2008 @ 9:59 am
Don,
I don’t think MM is fluency of any visual language. But I could be wrong. People have asked him if he knows sign language and he never answer the question.
DrDonG said,
August 10, 2008 @ 10:28 am
Chris –
MM has said he is married to a signer. But, I don’t know if he uses sign with her or not — he’s never told me that — it is implied, but not necessarily true.
MM said,
August 10, 2008 @ 11:41 am
After 15 years married to a non-speaking signer it is pretty obvious I MUST have sign knowledge, or the relationship could never have worked could it ? I don’t really find the question relevant. I can follow Signed English pretty well and prefer it myself, some BSL too (A tutor said I was about stage II-III level). Like most Brits I am NOT familiar with ASL, but I do find american signing blogs of interest from what I can gain from the text responses, it can be frustrating responding yourself when you didn’t actually follow the vblog, I felt at disadvantage that’s all…. When I have done vblogs I tend to caption them, mainly because if I DID sign, Americans may still not follow.
As a deaf person I respond as I can. I doubt American deaf are going to rush out and master BSL or Signed English as we use it, to suit us… It’s a global issue isn’t it ? We know USA deaf turn off foreign language vids and don’t watch them, WE do ! at least Brits CAN bridge a lot of that divide to the USA via text.
As for deafhood, It was obvious day one, the ‘concept’ was seen as the new ‘holy grail’ for the sign user (In the USA anyway), but look up the Arthurian legends on that too. Has Mr Ladd the USA deaf sussed ? in that, they don’t know who they are ? and need to know which ‘direction’ to take ?
I think not….. even I give American deaf more credit than that…. he has simply tapped into a certain sector of deaf people who are insecure, or uncertain, and looking for something, ANYTHING….. If one peruses deaf.read blogs on deafhood, we see the confusion, then see that they have seized on it as some power against oralism, like I said, they haven’t read the book, Mr Ladd never said that, each of his proposed journeys (there are as many destinations as there are deaf ), are for the individual, and NOT for the DBC or any other group.
It’s deafhood abuse really. They have simply adapted the perception to suit the current arguments against A G Bell and the CI people, it is not even unique in doing that…… And as I put forward, deafhood is now a source of dissent. How long before American deaf start waving the book in people’s faces, like Mao did with his book ? a sense of proportion is badly needed.
We are all deaf, just start from there….
DrDonG said,
August 10, 2008 @ 1:45 pm
Thanks for clarifying about your signing status, MM — I suspected as much when you said you were married to a signer — you’re right in that the relationship probably wouldn’t work out well otherwise…
I’d love to learn BSL (or any other national sign language, for that matter). Just an issue of opportunity and exposure, unfortunately. I have a co-worker who worked in England for 4 years and she’s taught me how to fingerspell “BSL” in British fingerspelling and I’ve picked up a few occasional British signs from her on those times when she lapses into BSL instead of ASL. When people sign in BSL without caption, yes, I do not watch them, because I can’t understand them (for example, Ben Signs), but I can follow pretty much when they use International Signs. Interesting that makes a difference.
As for Deafhood, Ladd does criticize the oralist system in it. Yes, the journeys are individual and therefore different. Some of us have taken the journey to become more politically active (like me), others have taken the journey but want to make it a more private one, others have taken the journey toward a more of a middle-of-the-road, others haven’t really started the journey, some are running into detours, and so on and so forth.
One thing that Ladd says, as you do, we are all Deaf. Yes, let’s start from there.
MM said,
August 11, 2008 @ 6:48 am
Good argument for using captions I’d say
Ladd’s criticism of oralism is based on the Milan declaration, I do not think the last 30 years it has been the same issue. Transition time here in the UK really as they have gone beyond Sign or oralism schools to back all-inclusive ones, there really is not much support for either mode as ‘exclusive’ to use for the deaf. So not choice really, if there is such a thing for the deaf child, as parents are legally obliged to take that decision, no-one can expect a 5 yr old to declare it wants an oral or signed education, and no-one is going to take notice of a deaf protest group.
The big stumbling block for inclusion is not that deaf can’t hack it, or shouldn’t be made to, but that the enablement isn’t there, enablement is taking flak as it is BSL against oral-type education with mixed mode tuition, there is NO dedicated oral system in place in the UK of note, unless we include DELTA, (which is barely supported), and states teaching deaf through speech and hearing (Our own A G Bell !).
This fuels the anti-integrations area and pro BSL-only argument. There are some deaf children for whom mainstreaming isn’t viable. My own child has autism and cannot function via mainstream, and is in specialized schooling, I’m not immune to the deaf child’s case by any means, we tried mainstreaming, we tried half-half systems, there was little doubt it did not work, but it DID work for a lot of his peers.
My son having a very aggressive father (!) had that as an advantage really because I fought and won him special school placing, where he is happy. even for me that was very hard work…!
The debate was moved at one point, to suggest ALL deaf were unsuited for mainstream, (because this suits the deaf ‘community’ and social ethos), and the desire for deaf schools again, a system that has taken a real battering here, the aim is to shut all deaf schools except those to meet the need of the deaf who cannot function anywhere else..
BSL not being the main mode proffered by educationalists in the UK means most deaf leave school with little unity towards culture as Mr Ladd tells us, it has all moved on…. Hence I don’t see a back to the future approach as making a lot of sense. Equality is only relative if you run parallel and not with society. You can’t say you are as good as someone else, and never having to prove that, the proof is in the pudding… If you say I can do that as good as you, they will say, OK, let’s see it… the talking (!) really does stop there.
I know some deaf settle quite easily for that, but I think the deaf child should get, and deserves more. They used to leave deaf school with NO awareness whatever of how hearing peers lived, socialized or worked, deaf women a la Ladd’s history, did sewing, deaf men did carpentry or solitary type employments. That is less the case now, but there are still huge gaps of support so that is where the areas here need to concentrate, the rest isn’t as important, if you get disaffected deaf children, then you get adults don’t you ?
DrDonG said,
August 11, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
MM –
The reason I started captioning from the beginning was because I wanted to reach out to non-signers, Hearing and Deaf from other countries who don’t know ASL, but might be able to read English (like it or not, it is the international language of commerce these days…)
Thanks for the info on the British situation and your story. Sheds a lot of light on your perspectives. . Some similarities and differences between us here in U.S. and Britain. What is DELTA? You mean it is your version of AGB?
I’m glad you’re an aggressive father
That is really just about the only indicator that we have seen that is consistently found to point to student success in school — parental involvement.
We have the same debates about mainstreaming. I won’t go so far as to say mainstreaming doesn’t work for ALL Deaf kids (I know a few do seem to do fine in that setting), but I’m comfortable saying it doesn’t work for most of us, because public school education is set up according to Hearing norms and behaviors, and we Deaf are just that — Deaf — we cannot be “Hearing”, no matter how hard we try. It seems that just about every Deaf person I know has told me they experienced something “missing” from their mainstream education. Most say it was academic or social, but it could be emotional or identity development that is lacking in mainstream settings as well. Even with interpreters, the access to the curriculum is just not the same as receiving it directly from the teacher and peers yourself.
Just because BSL is not offered by educators in the UK (or ASL in the US) doesn’t mean that it is not the right approach — it just means that those educators are still thinking along Hearing-dominated lines toward educating the Deaf. Using BSL/ASL doesn’t mean that Deaf people won’t come out of their education “behind” Hearing people. The same academic curriculum that is offered to Hearing students can be presented to Deaf students through A/BSL. Students CAN learn to read and write English through A/BSL.
Your point about schools for the Deaf not being “equal” or placing Deaf on a “parallel” track with society isn’t necessarily true. If the curriculum is the same, then the only difference is that students are learning through another language, and in addition, students are GAINING an additional benefit that Hearing students don’t…. bilingualism.
A comparison I like to use is that of single-sex schools. Research has shown that girls (starting around Middle School) tend to fall behind boys in education (math and science areas) because they are concerned about looking too “smart” or “beating the boys” and therefore won’t get dates, etc. But when they are placed in girls-only schools, that pressure is not there, and they can flourish according to their natural academic abilities. They are still learning the same curriculum as they would in the public schools. They can graduate and enter society on an equal footing — nobody looks down on them because they graduated from a girls-only school.
I don’t think Deaf people ever left school NOT knowing how Hearing people live. We live in the Hearing world all the time, we have Hearing families, etc. Plus, schools for the Deaf offer another benefit: adult Deaf people can (and do) teach the students strategies for coping and living in the Hearing world through their own stories and informal discussions between themselves and the students. This kind of thing does not happen in the mainstream setting, which means that the Deaf student has to either learn those strategies themselves through trial and error or suffer and muddle through as best as they can.
Our argument is that mainstreaming leads to much more disaffection in Deaf children than Deaf-centered educational settings do (residential or otherwise).
Mishkazena said,
August 16, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
When I started asking DBC questions and asking for transparency, I didn’t expect to be attacked viciously, but I was ever since then. I was also attacked here, too. I am glad this time people are more careful, now that they are aware that the public are reading the blogs and vlogs closely. I am hopeful that more constructive dialogue will follow from now to on. We all can stand to learn from each other, including me. I’m always interested in seeing things from another person’s POV.
ASL Think Tank isn’t affiliated with NAD as of now.
About diversity among D/deaf people, I don’t expect them to conform to one mold. Otherwise that won’t be diversity. I accept them as they are. I have no problem with deaf oral or c.i. users.. unless they cop an attitude.